I just sold my 91 lexus ls400 about 30 mins ago. The lady bought it a little under market value, only 4500 and I just completed a timing belt/wp job and basically all other maint. you can do. I could have sat on it and probably sold it for closer to 6k.
Here's the deal. For the past 4-6 months, the car won't start warm sometimes, usually when it's hot outside. Obviously this can be a very big/stressful problem. I have taken it to everywhere you can think of trying to figure it out. Replaced half the fuel system, new battery, starter checked, everything. It still does it. Everyone I took it to gave up or had no idea what they were talking about it. Otherwise, it runs excellent***, perfectly reliable once it starts.
So I'm in college and I can't just sit on this thing and I don't need it [already bought replacement acura integra and have a motorcycle]. Everyone tells me just sell it and thinks it's silly when I tell them i don't want someone else to go through what i did.
However, in the last month or so it hasn't been doing it, but the weather has also been cooler. I redid some grounds, changed battery cables, etc. and figured maybe I fixed it. However, I have been avoiding driving it where it might screw me over if it didn't start because i'm not going to ask for it you know?
I didn't tell the lady it had a problem with starting and as far as I knew it didn't. I've got 500 in the bank and seriously need to move this car. She and her boyfriend took it on a long test drive, turned it off, turned it back on, etc. and it performed flawless. I let them take it as long as they wanted to. Had it checked out by a shop as well. Today it got warm in TX again when she picked it up/paid for it. She calls me a whopping 30 mins later asking me if there was a 'trick' because it wasn't starting. I told her to double check the alarm stuff I told her about previously, she was just kind of laughing as if it were funny. That was 30 mins ago and she hasn't called back.
Everytime my phone rings I get a sick feeling in my stomach, one I haven't felt in a long, long time.
Technically it's her responsibility as a used car buyer to check the car out totally. Everyone keeps telling me that, and that eventually someone will figure it out and I've done everything expensive and to fix the prob will probably be 2-300 max. But I feel as if I am being immoral and dishonest, but I'm pinned against the wall here.
I'd rather live under a bridge and have 7 dollars to my name than think I was a dishonorable person.
Any advice before I hit my phone with a hammer?
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT
Post Edited (Oct 20, 2:46pm)

yea i understand how you feel, that sucks.. but you already sold it.. so it might be best to just play dumb about that starting problem. like it never happened to you before... plus call her now instead of waiting.. ask her what the problem is.. maybe it didnt start because of the alarm like you told her.. but if that problem is still there, you should pay to have it fixed. if you sold it for 4600, whats a couple hundred.
73 240 L28 with N42 head.. bored .40 over, cam, headers, exhaust, su carbs with sm needles, 5 sp, lsd... toyota brakes, chevy alternator, msa roll bar.

Well friend you knew the car had a problem...I think you answered your own question...let your conscience guide you...sounds to me like a minor wiring problem that can be fixed and that you can reimburse her for...you will feel better I guarantee it...and ethically you should have told her about it...you would want to know if it were you wouldn't ya?...
1976 280z 2+2 - Risen from the dead - garaged since 1988. Pallnet Fuel Rail and guage - ES rack and front bushings - 260Z 4Speed - Arizona Z Car Clutch - H4 Lights - Lots more to come...

Zlover57, The problem that you had on the ls400, was the ecu inj. relay and wires related to it. i have an SC400 that had the same problem. i fixed it three day ago. after almost $900 in diagnosis

I feel as if I am being immoral and dishonest
if a dealer, even an used car lot encounter the situation ( 30 minutes) they will take care..you must pick up the phone, the lesson to learn could be: never buy a used car at the end of a business day..especially before a Holiday LOL
Have you shared the left lane today?

Well, just ask yourself what you'd like the seller to do for you if roles were reversed. Offer to reimburse her for the repairs.
---------------
1982 280zx

tell her the problems you had with it.
_____________________________________________
'05 350Z Chrome Silver Touring
'73 240Z

If she calls back emotionally stressed out etc. I'll tell her I'll pay for a diagnosis at whatever place she likes.
The thing is I know my way around cars and I researched this HARD. More thoroughly than any other car related topic. I had the owner/founder of the best lexus specialty shop in Houston personally** go through all the wiring from all related systems. He said it was fuel pump, I replaced it, didn't fix it.
The problem is let's say I do agree to fix it. They'll probably same some bs like it's the starter, a 1k job, which it absolutely isn't, then what? My word against a shops? How long does this go on for and when does it end?
The odds of any normal shop actually finding the cause, and not giving up and just pick something that looks old and might* be it is slim to none.
Nelo, the main relay was one of the first things I tested, thanks for the suggestion though.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT

So I decided to call and check up on her to see how she was doing. She said everything was fine. She actually tried to start the car when it was already running, that was the problem. She said she's never had a car so quiet will on. She thought she might have messed something up but after a few tries it started up fine.
Anyhow, you guys have helped guide me, thanks as always.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT

zlover that exactly what i said. Trust me that relay is your problem.
It doesnt matter if you put a brand new relay its still going to do it. in my case i had to use the wiring diagram to find out that the ecu that i connection in the ecu was causing a short leaving the relay stuck in the off position ( no electricity going to the ecu)
Post Edited (Oct 20, 3:59pm)

You could back out of this semi-gracefully — if she calls again — by saying the car USED to have a hot-start problem and that you had spent a bunch of dough on the fix, and that in the last month (or two) it had not exhibited the problem. Therefore, you thought it was fixed, which is why you didn't mention it in the first place. Doesn't get you completely off the hook in her eyes, but it is the truth. If she gives you any static, give her the whole litany of what you did and all the $$ you spend. If she gives you more: "Maam, I apologize for not telling you about this before you bought the car, but as I said, I did not think it was any longer a problem. I've just told you what I went through to get it fixed and that it hadn't done it in awhile, so I thought it was fixed. However, you got that car checked out. Your mechanics found nothing wrong. You drove it and found nothing wrong. You bought the car at good price. I made it very plain that this was a USED car and had NO guarantees. Any problems it has now, I'm sorry, but they are your problems."
You would be nuts to offer to fix anything for her, IMHO.
'76 280Z driver, '75 parts car

You know the right thing to do, dont let the money flaw your morals. Money comes and goes, do the right thing, youll feel better and thats more important.

Caveat Emptor; latin for "buyer beware" I think explains alot of the dilemma that Zlover is experiencing.
On the moral side of it, you should divulge all known problems with the car, while on the sales side of it, it is the buyers responsability to do a complete test drive, and a mechanic's inspection if they so desire.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.

I had a similar problem with my PU truck not starting after driving it on hot days, It was the fuel pump relay. Relays can be very flaky acting. My relay tested fine however after replacing it the problem has never reoccurred. I second Nelo3000's opinion, it sounds like it very well could be a relay problem.
"YES I will finish what I sta"
.
1977 280Z blue 2+2,
1973 240z
1977 280Z coupe in restoration progress

I feel bad too, my TT had a head gasket problem, and I still sold it for 7200...In some ways I feel bad, but after the guy took it to his "mechanic" ( an all lube station) I didn't feel bad when they didn't find a problem with my z....however next summer, he'll notice the fan clutch engaging almost always, and then he'll find out why. He has the money, and for sport cars with 130k on them, you can't expect too much. Had he taken it to a "real" mechanic, they would have found the problem, and I would have probably dropped a jdm engine in the z and called it good....I spent 700 bones to find out why my Z had the fan clutch engaging all the time in the summer, and finally I did a strip test and found out I had to spend almost 2g's to get a head gasket replaced due to having oil in my coolant....so I feel bad, but its down to this for me: used cars are sold as is, and taking it to a mechanic, and I mean real mechanic, could help find expensive issues that can come up. I would have wholeheartedly gotten the gasket fixed before selling, but since he wasn't smart enough to get a real person to look at it, I see it as his fault. Plus, he's got enough cash to fix the problem.
1993 TwinTurbo Ultra Red (M/T) SOLD! :(
94 Honda civic hatchback with 110 horsepower.....yay.

Change your address and phone number.
1972 240z w/L28, tokico shocks and springs, and a 5 speed waiting. Also running high performance ultra mega blinker fluid, that's at least an extra 50hp to the wheels.
1987 Toyota Supra Turbo 5-speed. Belongs to me until my friend get's back from Iraq.

Sorry, I'd have to agree with JR, his response is absolutely true and accurate. I have been on both sides of this equation, I felt bad when I sold a truck that had the transmission go away on the way home. Buyer asked if I ever had a problem and I honestly hadn't. I am sure he didn't like my answer but that is the way things go sometimes. I have also purchased cars that didn't quite live up to the test drive and check out. I accept that as my problem and I move on.
I don't sell at retail or high blue book values, I price it honestly based on what I feel it's worth is and let the chips fall where they fall.
www.zselect.com
75 280Z Current project car
75 280Z Hybrid Chevy 350
90 300ZX Just for fun

ehh,,, i can't help but think you should mention everything you know about the car before selling it. I think that as long as the car is ok, and since you said you did mention it to her, you're still 'in the clear'.
On the other hand, selling a car with a bad head gasket that you know about, and not mentioning it, is just wrong (in my opinion, at least.) It's one thing to be ignorant of a problem. It's another thing to pretend to be ignorant so that you can get more money than something is worth. In my opinion, that's called a lack of integrity, dishonesty, etc.., even if the guy didn't ask about any 'major' problems.
1980 280zx w/L28ET MSnS-Extra, framerails are toast...
1982 280zx...newest acquisition...
1983 Maxima - just sits in the driveway these days...

so what would you suggest? I drop 2g's in a car just to lose money on it anyways? as it is, it drives fine and the gasket issue was barely starting to unfold as I was in the process of selling it...I found out literally a day before selling it....what was I to do? I really had to sell her, I was in a financial hole, I really couldn't afford to drop 2k in it and not even see a dime of that money...
1993 TwinTurbo Ultra Red (M/T) SOLD! :(
94 Honda civic hatchback with 110 horsepower.....yay.

"so what would you suggest? I drop 2g's in a car just to lose money on it anyways? as it is, it drives fine and the gasket issue was barely starting to unfold as I was in the process of selling it...I found out literally a day before selling it....what was I to do? I really had to sell her, I was in a financial hole, I really couldn't afford to drop 2k in it and not even see a dime of that money..."
The RIGHT thing to do, would be to give full disclosure on everything that you know about a vehicle before selling it. No matter how much the value of the car depreciates.
However, not everyone does the right thing all the time. Thus, CKelly78Z is correct in saying that it is a case of "buyer beware".
Ron
Sacramento CA
73 240Z

Junkyard has it. I bought my 86t, 52k off of autotrader and e-mailed the seller and asked every question I could think of after researching this site for a year or so. Great car and seller said it was perfect after repeated questioning. Took it to the Nissan dealership the seller used (I flew to Orlando from TN to get it). They said it was perfect. Drove it looked over it and noticed minor stuff, hole in muffler, minor miss at idle. Got it back home and no bright lights, fuel sending untit was defective, trans mount broken, Hose to MAF old brittle and pulled away from MAF, alternator went out after 1 week. Asked him if t belt had been replaced. Discovered it had been replaced in last 14k miles but 8 years ago. Several other problems he and the dealer would have known about. Would have still bought it but would have offered a grand less. Financially, the big picture, no biggy but they lied like dogs and that burns my a**. I try to be as honest as possible. What goes around comes around.
By the way, not disappointed, lovin' every minute of it.
86t, 58k, k&n, workin' on it
Post Edited (Oct 20, 7:22pm)

junkyard280z--well, I know it wasn't the right thing to do, but I see it this way: either I screw myself, or give it to someone that can afford to get screwed....I couldn't, simple as that. And also, other than that problem, that car is flawless....it didn't need anything else. Maybe when you've dropped 6k in a car that you've owned for only two years, you'll understand why I did what I did. I'm not proud, and I've always been a strong advocator of truth and doing the right thing, but honestly, this was the one time I just couldn't afford to be that honest and take a hit.
1993 TwinTurbo Ultra Red (M/T) SOLD! :(
94 Honda civic hatchback with 110 horsepower.....yay.

Basically anything that is wrong with the car that would prevent it from running really should be disclosed.
Little crap (such as radio problems,slow power window operation,crap like that) that doesn't affect the basic running of the car need not be disclosed unless directly asked about.
Used cars are just that, used cars.
However in your case it WAS a problem that did affect the basic running of the car.
If she calls you back just tell her what you have replaced in the past so that you can at least save her the trouble of paying a mechanic to fix what already has been replaced.
Whether you want to offer her money is entirely up to you,but I don't think you need to pay for the entire repair since it is now her car. 50-50 would be reasonable, but that's your call.
Also you have to add into the equation is that if you pay for this problem what happens when a NEW problem creeps up a week from now and she expects you to pay for that one as well because she figures you knew about it as well???
In the future deal with car running problems BEFORE you sell the car and you can sleep well at night.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998

Last weekend, I traveled 210 miles to Lexington Ky. to test drive and eventually buy a 97 VW cabrio convertible with only 86,000 miles for $4000. The guy was totally upfront and honest about everything, even pointing out little problems that would have taken months to discover. On the way home, a noise developed that got loud, and vibrating the farther I went. I had to park the car 85 miles from home at 1:00 in the morning and come back the next day with my 2 wheeled car dolly to tow it home.
Long story short, I spent $240 on a wheel bearing replacement, but didn't bother calling the seller because he couldn't have known, or been responsible for this problem. I WOULD have returned it if it had been the transaxle.
I am always as honest as possible, but don't feel like scaring potential buyers away by telling them every little problem.
Black, bumperless, 78 Z with MSA superturbo system, K/N cone filter, ported intake, and exhaust manifolds.....15.9 @87 mph.

i hate scammers like YOU! LOL iam just playing
73' 240z: F54 4.2L, OS Giken LY DOHC Crossflow head, 17:3comp.ratio, N33, Tripple SU's, T10 Hybrid Draw-Through TT @ 47pds, Roots&Centrifugal Type supercharger, 3-2-1 headers, Centerforce 4 clutch, 6oz flywheel, R300 differential, Super-Hicas

"I've always been a strong advocator of truth and doing the right thing, but honestly, this was the one time I just couldn't afford to be that honest"
Trust me i know how bad it sucks to overpay on a car ($3000 for my 280zx!) and find out that it needs pretty much new EVERYTHING!! lol man i've spent so much money on my car, it's astounding (at least $7000, adding up receipts is too depressing so I don't do it anymore).
Just keep this in mind - standing up for truth doesn't really mean anything if you only do it when it's convenient for you! Your real character comes out when you are under pressure.
Forgive me for this analogy, but it is kind of like saying, "I never cheat on my wife, except when i'm horny!"
1980 280zx w/L28ET MSnS-Extra, framerails are toast...
1982 280zx...newest acquisition...
1983 Maxima - just sits in the driveway these days...

>perfectly reliable once it starts.
I love that... lol
I bought my 88 turbo in "perfect" condition and $8,000 worth in receipts for prior repairs and service history in the glovebox. Everything was in order, I proceeded to drive it home and the alternator crapped out on me during the 150 mile trip back. I didn't think any less of the previous owner for that, it was still the original alternator and just happend to be the only part left was wasnt reconditioned or replaced that needed to be and he wasn't mechanically inclined at all. Sometimes you just can't help it, she got a good car for a good price so for something to go wrong is not to be unexpected.
85' 300ZX NA
86' 300ZX Turbo
88' 300ZX Turbo
89' 300ZX Turbo
300ZX Turbo Project

Trippint, I love you man! (non gay way)
Have you shared the left lane today?

In the future deal with car running problems BEFORE you sell the car and you can sleep well at night.
Later,Norm
I second that , when no other form of "civil" is available, common sense goes a long way
Have you shared the left lane today?

I had the same problem with my Z when I bought it. 85 turbo, around 80K, needed paint. At least that is what he sold it to me as.... said the digi dash needed to be fixed (no biggie) and the power steering leaked. For the $900, it wasnt bad. Then on the drive home (from Chattanooga to Lebanon), the car died for no reason, and had to leave it at a Pep Boys to get fixed. They couldnt, but a friend of mine drove the car home for me the next weekend. The only thing he was right about was the lack of rust on the inside. for everything else:
--NA ECU on a Turbo car
--1986 NA ECU on an 85
--Car was originally an analog dash (had to change the fuel sending unit so that it would work)
--dash itself was crapped out
--never properly changed the harness from analog AC/heater to digital, so I have some weird thing going there
There are a couple others, but I cant think of them of the top off my head. If I would have known that he had done all this weird sh*t to the car, I definitely wouldnt have bought it. I asked all the standard questions, but I think all of this stuff should have been disclosed. I understand having to fix stuff like brakes, suspension, etc, but when you are mixing and matching wiring harnesses and the like, that kind of stuff needsto be disclosed.... would have saved me a lot of time and grief.
1985 Nissan 300ZX Turbo "Rose": 85000 miles, 5 Speed, Red/white exterior, Burgundy Interior
Mods: 87 digital dash, 240SX front parking lights

no flames intended but: 85 turbo, around 80K 900 pesos?..blame it on yourself..n going from Chattanooga to Lebanon? which lebanon? this is the internet (the whole planet) not the local radio talk show/newspaper :)
Have you shared the left lane today?

Lebanon, TN--about 2.5 hours away.
I expected some work on the car, that is why $900 didnt seem bad. Mostly cosmetic, or so it seemed at the time. Like I said, regular wear and tear is one thing--chasing down wiring harnesses is a whole different matter. It was intended to be a project car, pure and simple. Fix the dash, suspension, power steering, and the paint, and I would have been done. I have gotten most everything sorted out (going with aftermarket speedo, ripping out the AC, etc). Besides, the interior was near mint (I think he used the interior of a 87 car), so it wasnt too bad.
Chalk it up to experience. If I ever buy another z, I'll definitely know what to keep an eye on:) Can't complain too mch, though--I have learned a LOT about cars from dealing with her on a somewhat constant basis:)
1985 Nissan 300ZX Turbo "Rose": 85000 miles, 5 Speed, Red/white exterior, Burgundy Interior
Mods: 87 digital dash, 240SX front parking lights

If I understand you correctly, it is perfectly justified to intentionally mislead someone just because you are a piss poor money manager and are "in a hole". That's good information because now everyone knows that 1. you're likely to need the money so you'll be a motivated seller & 2. You don't tell the truth. So we know to further discount your price or no deal. Good information indeed. Wanna sell your car? Never mind, Don't want a Honda.
Anyone can drive a new car.

You are lucky she is a not 6.4' & 300lbs. I was sold a bad car once. I asked the owner if there was anything wrong with it & why he was selling it. "Nothing wrong with it, runs fine,need the money for school". Turned out the distributor needed replacing (would not start intermittently) & the auto trans would drop out of third & overdrive constantly. If I ever see that guy again I'll break his ******* legs.
This whole world smells bad, I'd buy another if I had
back what I paid for another mother@#$%@# in a motorcade

>Basically anything that is wrong with the car that would prevent it from
> running really should be disclosed.
Maybe for a moral standpoint, but not from a legal one. Check your local laws, but most chattel property transfers like a car are caveat-emptor (buyer beware). He very likely did NOT have any warranty of merchantability to uphold to the lady.
Used car dealers, because they are merchants, are held to a higher standard than personal sellers who do not sell many cars.

I wasn't talking from a legal standpoint z32dood ,I was talking from an ethical standpoint.
I sold cars for 13 years and lost many a sale by being too honest.
However, I never had trouble sleeping at night, although I wish I could say the same thing for paying the bills though!!! LOL
One sale I lost was when I disclosed to a customer that they should change the timing belt within the next 10K miles. The customer had NO IDEA that the car had a belt and I knew that he didn't know,BUT the car was for his 18 year old college bound daughter.The thought of her possibly breaking down at night due to a failed timing belt and possibly being raped or killed while waiting on the side of the road for someone to help her was worth the risk for me to lose the sale......which of course I did.
Were the car for just him, I probably would have just kept my mouth shut. So it honestly just depends on the situation.
Later,Norm
-----------------------------------------
12.804 @ 107.26 mph on crappy street tires with Dual SU Powered 2.9L Stroker!
ZCAR.COM member since Aug 1998

norm, I'm right with you on that one. I have driven the car on several 300+ mile trips, and didn't worry for one instant it would overheat/die/etc. while driving; if the problem was something like the tb where it could leave them stranded, it makes even more important to tell them.
19[TT]91
My TT beauty is gone.
2[00]2 Honda 954RR
Suzuki 1200 S; sportscar eater
19[I4]94 Integra GSR Sedan
Long live the Z...
aka SAHTT

I've figured out that all used cars have problems. You have to just except that and try to be the winner. Anything over 100k is likely to have major issues.
Anything over 160k is likely to have more than several major issues.
I have never owned a older(more than 5 years) used car that didnt break or have trouble. If you ever get a car for 2000 bucks that doesnt have problems consider yourself lucky. We got a 99 escort zx2 with 80k miles for 1900 bucks. Havnt had any trouble. I did the basic stuff to catch it up to its age. Brake pads, plugs/wires, belt, havnt flushed the fluids yet though. It has a non interference engine so ill worry about the timing belt around 110k miles. Nothing else should be a problem for a long time. I trust taking it on long trips. I study it a lot when driving to look for potential problems.
If I was you and she calls back later about having problems with it not starting when warm, ask to see the car and if they havnt damaged anything and they push for it offer to pay them back. Only to get rid of the guilt though.
The guy that bought my eclipse ended up bending all the valves. I helped him fix everything and made some money in the deal. Guilt made me do it. I made 40 bucks for 14 hours work, and provided my own tools, so it wasnt like I made out good. When the car was mine I didnt do a perfect timing belt install, didnt replace the lower ballancer belt. It broke and got in the way of the timing belt and made the valves bend. I later found out it made loud funny noises for 3 days BEFORE it bent the valves. He kept driving it! I was scared as heck that my repair would break but so far its been good. I checked the car out several times to see if the belt is still remaining tight. He also removed the belt cover and keeps a close eye on it since it cost him so much last time... Now the car has vistories over sti's and ws6 trans ams so its all good. And it's a fwd with mild mods(17psi, stock turbo, no tuning) so thats pretty good. They ran 30-100mph several times.
If it was my car I would go to a pick n pull junkyard and get a cylinder head for $35 bucks. Get all the required parts including a timing belt kit for around $160. Then would feel safe that it would last a while. He spend a lot more and got the head rebuilt, replaced tons of parts, etc. Spend around 500-700 bucks I think. The car has 180k miles and he wasnt expecting any problems with it, like all other people that buy old cars...
Post Edited (Oct 21, 9:50pm)

hey junkman, you sound really immature and quite absurd,before you jump to conclusions try owning a TT for 2 years, then come talk to me. until then, you don't know me and never will, and no amount of guesswork from one lousy paragraph I wrote will tell you anything about me. So sit on it and spinZ....
1993 TwinTurbo Ultra Red (M/T) SOLD! :(
94 Honda civic hatchback with 110 horsepower.....yay.

"what was I to do? I really had to sell her, I was in a financial hole"
Like I said piss poor money manager. Also, not to be tusted.
Anyone can drive a new car.