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trickle-charger on through winter?
Question:
The recommendations to "start a car every couple of weeks" went out in the fifties, along with the "put the car up on blocks to prevent tire flat spotting" recommendations.It's not "made up" and it's not "pure speculations". Check around. And check with someone knowledgeable, not just "the old way or doing things". But hey, do what you want... Actually....Lotus states in the manual that, "Starting difficulties may be encountered after an unattended period of three weeks." Answer:
Actually....Lotus states in the manual that, "Startingdifficulties may be encountered after an unattended period of three weeks." You need to read the whole section, as the next sentence is very important to the topic in the manual - the topic was Battery Charging, not keeping the engine lubricated. I bolded your quote, and highlighted the next sentence in Blue for emphasis. Battery Charging Under conditions of normal daily use, it should not be necessary to use external battery charging equipment. In a low usage regime, however, it is important to maintain the charge state of the battery using a trickle charger, or an automatic battery management conditioner such as that available through Lotus Dealers. Starting difficulties may be encountered after an unattended period of 3 weeks. A battery conditioner is able to continuously monitor battery charge state and switch on and off automatically in order to maintain the battery in a fully charged state without danger of damage through overcharging. Answer:
Jim Itin; in viewing the Battery Tender photos on line, it appears to me that the diameter of the opening in the connectors is too small to fit over normal automobile battery terminals. Other devices I have used allowed such connections.Is the photo deceptive, or is there another way to connect the quick-disconnect harness? Piasa, The photo is not deceptive, the terminals on the ends of the quick- disconnect harness are relatively small diameter eyelet terminals and will not fit over the battery terminal posts. You need to attach the eyelet to the bolt which tightens the cable end to the terminal. Just remove the nut from the end of the tightening bolt, slip on the eyelet terminal, re-attach the nut and tighten SECURELY. Then route the quick disconnect line outside the battery cover box so you can easily access it when you're connecting the charger. Jim Answer:
You need to read the whole section, as the next sentence is very important to the topic in the manual - the topic was Battery Charging, not keeping the engine lubricated. I bolded your quote, and highlighted the next sentence in Blue for emphasis.Battery Charging Under conditions of normal daily use, it should not be necessary to use external battery charging equipment. In a low usage regime, however, it is important to maintain the charge state of the battery using a trickle charger, or an automatic battery management conditioner such as that available through Lotus Dealers. Starting difficulties may be encountered after an unattended period of 3 weeks. A battery conditioner is able to continuously monitor battery charge state and switch on and off automatically in order to maintain the battery in a fully charged state without danger of damage through overcharging. My point only concerned the fact that by allowing a few weeks (at least two) of not using your car, won't affect anything adversely. You 'originally' gave the impression that it was something that wasn't acceptable anymore, that being the two weeks of non-use, and Lotus clearly is not of the same mind as you. Had they been, their statement would have said something otherwise. Even after the 'two weeks', Lotus uses the words 'may' with regard to possible difficulty getting the car to start. The plain fact is that two weeks of inactivity is no big deal and three weeks may not be either, though at that point you could possibly experience a problem starting and may not want to push the envelope to that point. Answer:
which charger? a bmw special or can be bought?
I don't know right off. It is *12* years old. It's not made by BMW, but was OEMed from someone else with their label on it. Analog ammeter, 3 amp max charge. If I was to search for it now, I'd try BMW *BIKE* dealers because current BMW bikes use this same plug to this day. As always, Google knows more than I do. Answer:
My point only concerned the fact that by allowing a few weeks (at least two) of not using your car, won't affect anything adversely. You 'originally' gave the impression that it was something that wasn't acceptable anymore, that being the two weeks of non-use, and Lotus clearly is not of the same mind as you.
Sorry, maybe there was a misunderstanding. I never said that there was a problem with two weeks of non-use. I was simply indicating that starting a car (while it's sitting and not being driven) every two weeks to charge up the battery is not good for the engine, and is not recommended. You can go longer without charging a battery, or less (heck my car has sat with out a charger for longer than that). I was commenting that using a battery tender/maintainer/conditioner to keep the battery charged is much, much better than using "trickle charger" periodically to keep it charged. The trickle charger can easily overcharge a battery if it is left connected for too long. Battery tenders/maintainers/conditioners are made to be left connected for long periods (if needed). When my car is put up for the winter (which I do to keep the idiots around here from hitting it - people don't seem to understand that ice on the road is slippery - and because of the excessive amount of salt and abrasives they use on the road around here) I connect my Batter Tender Jr. to keep the battery maintained. But I don't put my car up until needed - it only got to the 40s today (high) and I was out driving topless... Answer:
When my car is put up for the winter (which I do to keep the idiots around here from hitting it - people don't seem to understand that ice on the road is slippery - and because of the excessive amount of salt and abrasives they use on the road around here) I connect my Batter Tender Jr. to keep the battery maintained. But I don't put my car up until needed - it only got to the 40s today (high) and I was out driving topless...
My battery tender says to make sure the battery is in a ventilated area. It seems to me that the Elise battery is in a lot less ventilated place than the batteries of most cars, at least with the lid down. Any thoughts on that? Answer:
Batteries = expendable. If you have to store the car and can't drive it for months at a time, remove it and store it. If it won't take a charge in the Spring, get a new one. Not important!!Tires = NOT expendable. Be sure to move the car a foot or two every couple of weeks to prevent flattening. Engine = NOT expendable. Change oil before storage. Remove spark plugs and foam the cylinders. Replace spark plugs after oiling the threads. Gas = Expendable, but vital to longevity of engine. Run StaBil through system to prevent clogging of injectors. Cables and other moving parts = NOT expendable. Coat those you can get to with WD40 or equivalent. Every week or two go through all the gears and move everything you can think of that might develope corrosion problems over time. Corrosion is the enemy here and the battery is meaningless in comparison. The reason people start their cars and idle them for 10 or 15 minutes is to prevent corrsion of the cylinder walls and other vital parts by getting oil to them. It's a good practice if the alternative is letting the car sit idle for months at a time. Everyone here is giving you good advice within the framework of their own experience and learning (if you can separate the two), but the bottom line with ALL these posts about storing a car for prolonged periods is to prevent, or at least minimize the damage that WILL occur. There is no alternative to driving the car and I have been fighting that alternative as I look out at the snow on the ground as I write this. Hopefully it will be gone soon so I can indulge in the best preventative measure.... DRIVING IT! Jim Answer:
Sorry, maybe there was a misunderstanding. I never said that there was a problem with two weeks of non-use. I was simply indicating that starting a car (while it's sitting and not being driven) every two weeks to charge up the battery is not good for the engine, and is not recommended. You can go longer without charging a battery, or less (heck my car has sat with out a charger for longer than that). I was commenting that using a battery tender/maintainer/conditioner to keep the battery charged is much, much better than using "trickle charger" periodically to keep it charged. The trickle charger can easily overcharge a battery if it is left connected for too long. Battery tenders/maintainers/conditioners are made to be left connected for long periods (if needed). When my car is put up for the winter (which I do to keep the idiots around here from hitting it - people don't seem to understand that ice on the road is slippery - and because of the excessive amount of salt and abrasives they use on the road around here) I connect my Batter Tender Jr. to keep the battery maintained. But I don't put my car up until needed - it only got to the 40s today (high) and I was out driving topless... I'm also of the mind that once you start a car...it should definately be driven. I did find out last January that the Yokahamas suck on icy mush roads and avoid those conditions always! Hosing off any salt is not that big of a deal since plain water will get it off all the areas under the the car, including the wheel-wells, and I have gas stations near me with water available via their box-type 'do-it-yourself' car wash systems. Have wondered though if by strapping on some of those modern 'studded' tire-wraps, would I not find myself slipping and sliding in snow and icy-mush? Answer:
Batteries = expendable. If you have to store the car and can't drive it for months at a time, remove it and store it. If it won't take a charge in the Spring, get a new one. Not important!!In context of the Elise I would be very hesitant to take the car away from its power source for very long as there is an open question about what happens to the alarm system once its backup battery runs down. I have personally seen a dealer(!) unable to unlock a car because both the battery and the alarm battery went dead. He hooked the car up to a jumper box and still could not open the car because it had been locked with the fob, and evidently the codes had been lost. Several people have posted here about similar problems, and when one fellow, his fobs not working, finally got into the car (using a hanger) he could not turn off the immobiliser, even using the manual method with the key. I think he had to get it towed to a dealer, and I never did hear how it finally turned out. I would like to hear from anyone who has removed the battery from the Elise for several months to see if they had any problems upon hooking it back up. Answer:
Huh? In my 45 years of experience with cars, I've never heard that sort of logic. Most (if not all) manufacturers recommend that vehichles be run frequently to lubricate internal parts, which also abates moisture, etc. One of the worst things you can do is leave an internal combustion 'sitting around' for extended periods. My engine is at full operating temperature at 15 minutes. Tim...I'm sure you're a nice, educated fellow, but watching some of your posts over the past few months leads me to believe you sit around sometimes and make these things up to impress someone? And hey, I'm not claiming, and will be the first to admit not be expert on anthing automotive - but enough with the pure speculations...please.
Well, for giggles and because I really don't know which approach is best, I did do a google on this. Turns out there are all kinds of opinions on how to store the car. One site pointed out that there are different levels of storage. One is to REALLY store it, ie it truly will not be driven at all over several months. That site spells out all kinds of things to cover interior, exterior, mechanical, and electrical issues. It says to remove plugs completely, shoot some oil down the cylinders. Change oil and coolant prior to storage, and NOT start at all over the winter. Actually, you can't, 'cause you remove the plugs and the battery completely in this method. I didn't spend a whole lot of time searching, but a little time, and I found no site advocating a 10 to 15 minute start up at all, in fact where it is mentioned they say run it for 30 minutes at highway speeds, per Tim's suggestion, and a few state flat out that the 15 minute idle should be avoided. But...contrary to Tim's post most of the sites I looked at said jack standing is perfectly ok, and some even said it's good for the bushings! I understand Tim's arguments, and they make sense, but what I'm sharing is that many sites, some aimed at the preservation of classic cars over the winter season, indicate that jack standing without also putting the suspension under load is fine. Pick your poison. I'm not storing my car, just not going to drive it as much. But it WILL be driven each week unless there is a permanent ice/snow/salt covering on the road. Answer:
so i should have changed my oil. i can possibly still do it if a nice weekend happens so that i can drive the car around for half-an-hour after the change. You've got it backwards, drive the car hard, then change your oil. Hot oil holds more contaminants. Driving the car after a change only adds new contaminants... Answer:
Batteries = expendable. If you have to store the car and can't drive it for months at a time, remove it and store it. If it won't take a charge in the Spring, get a new one. Not important!!Tires = NOT expendable. Be sure to move the car a foot or two every couple of weeks to prevent flattening. Engine = NOT expendable. Change oil before storage. Remove spark plugs and foam the cylinders. Replace spark plugs after oiling the threads. Gas = Expendable, but vital to longevity of engine. Run StaBil through system to prevent clogging of injectors. Cables and other moving parts = NOT expendable. Coat those you can get to with WD40 or equivalent. Every week or two go through all the gears and move everything you can think of that might develope corrosion problems over time. Corrosion is the enemy here and the battery is meaningless in comparison. The reason people start their cars and idle them for 10 or 15 minutes is to prevent corrsion of the cylinder walls and other vital parts by getting oil to them. It's a good practice if the alternative is letting the car sit idle for months at a time. Everyone here is giving you good advice within the framework of their own experience and learning (if you can separate the two), but the bottom line with ALL these posts about storing a car for prolonged periods is to prevent, or at least minimize the damage that WILL occur. There is no alternative to driving the car and I have been fighting that alternative as I look out at the snow on the ground as I write this. Hopefully it will be gone soon so I can indulge in the best preventative measure.... DRIVING IT! Jim Jim- What are you talking about "foam the cylinders" --? I've never heard of such a thing... I presume that at the start of the motoring season you clean it out somehow, re-"anti-seize" the plugs, put more dielectric grease on the boot, and put your plugs back in? Cheers. Answer:
By foaming the cylinders I mean spraying engine fogging oil into them. This product is available at most marine stores. The newer products are meant to be sprayed into the intake as well as directly into the cylinders, but I have no experience that procedure, so I would just use it to coat the cylinders. There is no problem with cleanup in the Spring, you just start the engine and run it for 30 minutes or so with the old plugs to clean it out and then change the plugs.Wiping a thin coat of oil on the plug threads is just to insure you can remove them in the Spring. Jim Answer:
Oops.... forgot about the battery issue. There may be "electronic" reasons for not removing the battery. I will bow to the more expert in that department. If you shouldn't remove the battery then be sure to use a very high quality conditioner/maintainer and NOT a trickle charger. The gases produced by overcharging are highly exposive. Jim Answer:
There are also some nicer solar charging units that help even in dim light...they plug into the power socket. You need to achieve the same or more energy going in than going out. The 3 week thing is with the alarm on, this increases current draw. So the safe restart time would be longer with the alarm off. A knob style battery disconnect would add time too.
Answer:
Cables and other moving parts = NOT expendable. Coat those you can get to with WD40 or equivalent.
You don't want to use WD-40. WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a penetrant - its purpose is to free stick parts to get them moving again. Then you oil them. (It also displaces water - that's what the WD stands for).Corrosion is the enemy here and the battery is meaningless in comparison. The reason people start their cars and idle them for 10 or 15 minutes is to prevent corrosion of the cylinder walls and other vital parts by getting oil to them. It's a good practice if the alternative is letting the car sit idle for months at a time. The problem is however, that the engine really stays lubricated by itself. There is an oil film on everything, and if you are using a good quality oil, it will remain on the surfaces of everything. Starting up the engine, although it will lubricate things, causes the oil to collect water vapor, fuel, and other contaminants that form acids - this is then the stuff that you have lubed the internals of you engine with. The "bad" stuff is now combined with the oil film that is already on the surfaces. For long term storage, yes, you should oil or foam the cylinders. For a couple of months it really isn't necessary. Consider that when cars are first manufacture red, they can spend months in shipping without being started. Then they are often delivered to the dealer where they can sit, unstarted, for long periods. No real problems usually occur except maybe the batteries go dead. Bottom line with all this is that putting a car up for a couple of months really won't harm it either way. Just drive into the garage and park it with no other preparation, and you won't have any problem (other than the battery) with starting it in the spring. Putting cars are jackstands is what you used to need to do to preserve the old bias-ply tires - long before radials and modern tires. Now days, tires don't flat spot (and if you are concerned about that, rolling the car a bit every week or so will take care of that). But leaving the suspension "drooped" for long periods will cause some problems - you may not notice them for a long time (if ever), but the damage to suspension bushings will be greater than any damage done to tires (which are replaceable anyway). Think about it - new cars sit on dealer's lots for months and have no tire flat spotting problems. The reason that the "old ways" are still poplar is that any way that you do it will not really cause any noticeable harm. The "I've always done it this way and it works." is true. The extra containments in the oil will not cause a noticeable harm. But starting the engine to lubricate things won't make any difference either - the question is "which is better for the engine". But neither will really do any major harm. The one that I do strongly recommend against is jacking a car. I have experienced the results of that. When my Elan was on jackstands for a couple of years getting "restored", when I finally got to the suspension bushings, several of them had separated and were freely rotating - they were all good when I started. Having a car on jackstands for a couple of months probably won't cause any noticeable damage - but it will be cumulative and sooner or later, things will be "bad". Answer:
For those who store their cars over the winter,wouldn't filling their tires with nitrogen help protect against getting flat spots in your tires? Answer:
For those who store their cars over the winter,wouldn't filling their tires with nitrogen help protect against getting flat spots in your tires? Not at all. Answer:
The 3 week thing is with the alarm on, this increases current draw. So the safe restart time would be longer with the alarm off. A knob style battery disconnect would add time too.
If by "on" you mean "armed", you should know that the alarm system draws power even when unarmed. That being said: the drain from the alarm system really is tiny -- less than 14 milliAmps armed and 10 disarmed. You stand to save about 4 mA by leaving the alarm "off". As a comparison, the little interior lamp alone draws about 440 mA. Water in lamps. Weird noise - help please!! - Page 2 Weird noise - help please!! wet spot - Page 2 wet spot What brand oil filter has an anti-drain back valve? What did I break at the track? - Page 2 Copyright © 2006 - 2008 www.TendCar.com
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