Please Help!!
Since there are so many mechanically inclined people at this forum, I thought I would ask for help on a problem I am having replacing the front brake rotors on my 1992 Honda Accord. I need to get this done in the next two days. My wife is traveling right now, and was adamantly against me trying to replace the rotors myself. However, I want to do more of my own car repair, particularly for the Elise. The old Honda makes for a good car to learn and practice on. So, I want to get this done before my wife gets home.

As part of the procedure to replace the front disk rotors, I have to separate the steering knuckle from the lower control arm. (This is a rather stupid design, in my opinion.) A description of this can be found at Autozone.
Honda Steering Knuckle Removal
(The description for a 1992 Honda Accord is futher down the page at that link. The picture will expand if you click on it.)

There is a bolt that goes down from the lower ball joint (which is pressed into the steering knuckle), through the lower control arm, and a castle nut with cotter pin secures it to the lower control arm. So, following the instructions in my Haynes manual, I remove the cotter pin on the castle nut, unscrew the nut 3 turns (so it is just starting to come off the tip of the bolt), then tried to use the recommended method of using a 2 jaw puller to separate the lower control arm from the ball joint's bolt. In this case, the pawls (hooks) of the puller are supposed to go over the top of the lower control arm (where there is a dust boot for the ball joint), and the central bolt of the puller pushes onto the tip of the balljoint's bolt. You then tighten the bolt on the puller, which will then push the ball joint's bolt up through the control arm, separating them. My problem is that the pawls of the puller can't seem to get a grip on the control arm. The dust boot for the ball joint just won't let the pawls in enough to get a grip. Argh!

So, I tried using a pickle fork, but it just can't seem to fit in there, and it would ruin the dust boot (which I prefer not to do).

So, I tried using a crow bar. I found a way to lodge it between the lower control arm and the steering knuckle, but no luck. The thing wouldn't budge.

So, I tried using a jack pushing up on the tip of the ball joint bolt. Since the car's spring pushes down on the lower control arm, I figured if I support enough weight on the bolt, the car's spring could cause the two to separate. But, it didn't work (I went so far as to support the full weight of that corner of the car on the bolt). I started worrying about bending the bolt, but I didn't see a good way to have the jack push on the steering knuckle directly.

So, I am out of ideas other than trying to machine a special tool to try to separate them. I really don't want to go through that hassle.

I guess I could try grinding down the thickness of the pawls of the puller a bit so they can have a better chance of slipping in under the dust boot. Unfortunately, I don't have a grinder, although my Dremel might suffice. I just worry that it might weaken the pawls too much.

And, yes, I know I could just put it all back together and take it to a brake shop. But, I really want to be able to do this myself. I already bought the rotors, and I bought a big 3/4" drive 300 ft.lbs. torque wrench and 3/4" metric socket set from Harbor Freight to support doing this job (needed those for the drive shaft spindle nut - 36mm and 181 ft.lbs.). Hi Chris,

On balljoints I've had good luck with this sort of tool:

http://www.thepartsbin.com/cartools/..._puller-d.html

They're available from auto parts stores, or sometimes you can rent them, although they don't cost much to buy.

Francis One other comment: no matter what tool you use, after you have put pressure on the balljoint stud, it usually takes some (gentle) tapping with a hammer to break the joint apart. This is especially true when the joint has been together a long time.

Francis The tool that fpitas linked to is the one you want (I call it the MadRabbit tool "it's got teeth like this"). As far as it being a "bad design", pretty much all mfgs. use this same design ...... must not be too bad I'm confused at why the ball joints need to be fiddled with to change a brake rotor. BTW if your rotor thickness is okay (min is marked on the disc) and the brakes were acting fine just change the pads. Generally speaking you want to remove the caliper to be able to get the rotor off. In some cases a rotor can tilt off when pads are remove and the caliper moved. Are you sure the front suspension has to come apart to change the rotor? If so that is unusual, most cars don't require that much effort. I guess a shop would charge much more than usual in that case.



Hi Chris,

On balljoints I've had good luck with this sort of tool:

http://www.thepartsbin.com/cartools/..._puller-d.html

They're available from auto parts stores, or sometimes you can rent them, although they don't cost much to buy.

Francis
Thanks. I'll see if I can find one. Sounds to me like you're taking way too much apart:
http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/How_do_you_remove_and_replace_the_front_brake_roto rs_on_a_1992_Honda_Accord
I'm confused at why the ball joints need to be fiddled with to change a brake rotor. BTW if your rotor thickness is okay (min is marked on the disc) and the brakes were acting fine just change the pads. Generally speaking you want to remove the caliper to be able to get the rotor off. In some cases a rotor can tilt off when pads are remove and the caliper moved. Are you sure the front suspension has to come apart to change the rotor? If so that is unusual, most cars don't require that much effort. I guess a shop would charge much more than usual in that case.




Before I started, I wasn't expecting to have to fool with the suspension either, but the stupid design on this series of Accords requires it. Getting the calipers off is no problem. However, you have to remove the wheel bearing and hub (the rotor is sandwiched between the outer hub and the steering knuckle). To get the wheel bearing/hub assembly off, you have to remove 4 bolts from back of the steering knuckle to release the wheel bearing, and you can't get those bolts off without removing the driveshaft. In order to remove the drive shaft, you have to separate the lower control arm from the steering knuckle. My Haynes manual says I have to do it, I checked multiple different online sources which all say I have to do it, and I carefully looked at drawings of how the hub is constructed to verify that it has to be done. I just want to go find the engineer who thought this was a good design and give him a good whack.

Here is the link to Autozone's instructions for removing the front rotor. The 92 Accord instructions start about halfway down the page. (The first set of instructions on the page look nice and easy, but are unfortunately for all Accords and Preludes "Except 1990-1995 Accords". ) My older (long gone) Civic didn't require this when pulling off the rotors. You just moved the calipers aside and unbolted the rotor from the outside of the hub. No removing of driveshaft required.

I thought that maybe I could separate the hub from the wheel bearing while it was on the car. But, it seems a hydraulic press is required to separate and reassemble them, and for that, the assembly needs to be off the car. Before I started, I wasn't expecting to have to fool with the suspension either, but the stupid design on this series of Accords requires it. Getting the calipers off is no problem. However, you have to remove the wheel bearing and hub (the rotor is sandwiched between the outer hub and the steering knuckle). To get the wheel bearing/hub aseembly off, you have to remove 4 bolts from back of the steering knuckle to release the wheel bearing, and you can't get those bolts off without removing the driveshaft. In order to remove the drive shaft, you have to separate the lower control arm from the steering knuckle. My Haynes manual says I have to do it, I checked multiple different online sources which all say I have to do it, and I carefully looked at drawings of how the hub is constructed to verify that it has to be done. I just want to go find the engineer who thought this was a good design and give him a good whack.

Here is the link to Autozone's instructions for removing the front rotor. The 92 Accord instructions start about halfway down the page. (The first set of instructions on the page look nice and easy, but are unfortunately for all Accords and Preludes "Except 1990-1995 Accords". ) My older (long gone) Civic didn't require this when pulling off the rotors. You just moved the calipers aside and unbolted the rotor from the outside of the hub. No removing of driveshaft required.

I thought that maybe I could separate the hub from the wheel bearing while it was on the car. But, it seems a hydraulic press is required to separate and reassemble them, and for that, the assembly needs to be off the car.
Man! Didn't Honda used to advertise that they "keep it simple"? You're going to think I'm an idiot- but this actually works and I've used it. An old auto shop teacher tought me this trick. It's a little hard to do and takes a few tries but it's worked for me more than once. Take two decent weight hammers, one in each hand and smack that muther with both of them at the same time, on opposite sides of each other. After a few times of getting them times right and few good blows it will fall right out. Doesn't ruin your dust boot either. It helps a bit if you have something prying down on it a bit too, but I've had it work without the 3rd hand. i work at a honda dealer in va and the best thing to do is hit the lower control arm where the lower ball point comes throught untill to breaks free then you need to take of the 36mm axle nut and slide out the axle behind that there are 4 12mm bolts the hold the wheel bearing to the hub they need to be removed then press out the bearing then unbolt the rotor from the bearing its not a easy thind to do on that car if you dont have mechanical back ground just a percaustion you can cause more damage then good if you dont know how to work with wheel bearings. SweetDaddyD's trick does work (banging both sides of the steering arm with BFH (Big Freaking Hammers).

But for my Honda, I made a tool. I bought a tie rod puller for less than $10 at Harbor Freight (but most auto part stores have them cheap also). Then, I ground the opening a bit wider. The Honda steering arm has small tabs that stick out on each side to accept the two arm puller - I ground the opening wide enough to slip over the arm and hang on the tabs. Then the screw pushes on the threaded end of the tire rod ball joint, and it comes apart easily.

A picture of the a similar tool that I found on the web is shown below.

The first time I had to separate the joint, I had to "Micky Mouse" a puller. I used a two jaw pulley puller and a c-clamp. I put the legs of the puller on the tabs, and used a c-clamp to hold the side of the puller together. It worked, but was a pain. I bought and modified the tie rod puller for the next time I had to take it apart (to do the rotors that time). SweetDaddyD's trick does work (banging both sides of the steering arm with BFH (Big Freaking Hammers).

But for my Honda, I made a tool. I bought a tie rod puller for less than $10 at Harbor Freight (but most auto part stores have them cheap also). Then, I ground the opening a bit wider. The Honda steering arm has small tabs that stick out on each side to accept the two arm puller - I ground the opening wide enough to slip over the arm and hang on the tabs. Then the screw pushes on the threaded end of the tire rod ball joint, and it comes apart easily.

A picture of the a similar tool that I found on the web is shown below.

The first time I had to separate the joint, I had to "Micky Mouse" a puller. I used a two jaw pulley puller and a c-clamp. I put the legs of the puller on the tabs, and used a c-clamp to hold the side of the puller together. It worked, but was a pain. I bought and modified the tie rod puller for the next time I had to take it apart (to do the rotors that time).
Man, the Elise is one of those cars whose rotors are very straightforward to change out. Who'd a thunk the exotic would be easy and the Honda such a pain. It will be nice to get those brake rotors finally changed, that is for sure. Honda improved things in later years, my 2000 Integra rotors come right off after you remove the wheel & caliper assembly. The earlier cars were a beast, though. Who'd a thunk the exotic would be easy and the Honda such a pain. It will be nice to get those brake rotors finally changed, that is for sure. But he rest of the car is pretty easy to work on.

For what it's worth, I changed the rotors on our '93 Accord when it had 140,000 miles on it. The brakes still had about half their original thickness and the rotors could have gone another 100,000 miles. I had bought the parts earlier (several years earlier) expecting to have to do normal brake work on it. I finally decided that it was time to do some general maintenance and repairs on the car (I had to change out a water pump and therefore a new timing belt at the same time).

The earlier time that I had to dissemble the front suspension was to swap out the drive shafts. They were fine, but the CV joint boot had torn, and the grease leaked out so things needed replacing.

Other than the driveshafts because of the tron boot, timing belts, the water pump, and the brake job that wasn't really needed, all I've ever done is fluid changes, spark plugs, and adjust the valves. Oh yea, I did have to change the slave cylinder...

Not bad for a 13 year old car... I thought that maybe I could separate the hub from the wheel bearing while it was on the car. But, it seems a hydraulic press is required to separate and reassemble them, and for that, the assembly needs to be off the car. I just notice this part of the post...

You can pull the hub apart on the car if you have a slide hammer. In my case, I attached the slide hammer to the lug bolts with the lugs, and "hammered" the hub apart. One side was a pain, the other just about came apart on its own...

To use a press, you'd have to remove the entire steering knuckle... I want to thank you all for your advice. I am new to working on suspensions, and didn't realize the various tools and techniques one could use (the Haynes manual isn't very good about such explanations).

I did get the ball joint studs to release on both sides. I tried the hammering suggestion, but it didn't work. (Maybe my hammers weren't big enough, or maybe it was because I couldn't get a hard enough swing with the car simply sitting on jack stands.) After the suggestions on the various tools to try, I found the following set at Harbor Freight online:
Front End Service Tool Set
I figured that at least one of those should work. Unfortunately, my two local Harbor Freight stores didn't carry them (they said it was an online item only), and I wanted it today. (Although I think I may order a set for future use.) So, I picked up a small "Tie Rod End and Pitman Arm Puller" at my local Harbor Freight for $7, with the hope that it would work. An image is attached below, and the relevant dimensions are:
Opening size: 1+1/16" (27 mm)
Pull travel: 2+1/8" (54 mm)

And, it really worked! I could just barely wiggle the opening of the puller over the lower control arm at a point a few inches inboard from the ball joint, and then I slid it down the arm so that the jaws sat on top of the arm centered at the ball joint position and squeezing just a bit against the dust boot, and the puller's bolt pressed up from below on the ball joint stud. I had to tighten it pretty hard, but it finally let loose with a very loud BANG. It startled me, even though I knew it was coming.

So, I got the drive shaft detached and the wheel bearing and hub assembly off (that took some effort too), and separated the brake rotor. Then, I find out that the auto parts store sold me the wrong rotor (they got one digit on the part number wrong). ARGH! Back to the store tomorrow. I hope they have the right one. This time I will be better about checking the part they give me.

Again, thanks for all the help, even though it isn't an Elise. I was very frustrated last night. nice job!