If it makes you feel any better Big Guy, I was very aggravated by that thread closure too. A couple other recent things too. I PMed Matt and he said the moderators had been watching / discussing the thread for some time and decided to close it. I found out there was a concern when it closed. As far as I know, the thread is still out there, you just have to search for it....you cannot add a post or bring it up to date. Are you saying it's not "just" closed, but GONE?

Man if this stuff continues, I'm outta here! Stan, I'm having my rear chassis brace support installed this week. I was quoted $1,085 plus installation time of approximately 2 hrs. in case anybody was wondering. I have searched for the thread and can only find a price quote from Newport European. I have searched all suspension threads and all information and concerns with regard to chassis support brace have been deleted. Does this not make you want to go hmmm???? They're not just closed, they're gone. Why has this been deleted?

Apparently Lotus controls this site not Elise owners. I thought this was a public and open forum, that meaning you have the ability to discuss and debate different points of view. When it comes to a safety issue there should be no debate. I would like Elise Talk to repost the thread under the heading Possible Suspension Problems or would that hurt Lotus Cars North America?

It's funny how they can delete people like Ronin for no reason other than his bringing to the forefront the problem that is known to exist with your help Stan. And where have all these other people putting down Ronin been all this time because apparently they never made a post or comment and after speaking with Ronin via e-mail, it's funny how they can manipulate your personal computer as to what you see and can post.

If anyone would like to see the possible threads with regard to rear suspension brace I have copies of all posts up to the deletion of Ronin. If interested PM me or just quote me so that all can see that something is going on, aka, Andy Keck... Oops! I have searched all suspension threads and all information and concerns with regard to chassis support brace have been deleted. Does this not make you want to go hmmm???? They're not just closed, they're gone. Why has this been deleted? Apparently Lotus controls this site not Elise owners.
That is indeed interesting if that is the case. I'll take a look. I'm a big believer in FOS and open discussions. AndyKeck,

After reading your post can you tell me which came first, the chicken or the egg because failure of the threaded joint according to past posts I've reviewed of Stan's would cause your car to lose control in the manner you originally described.

Chicken or the egg, think about it. That is indeed interesting if that is the case. I'll take a look. I'm a big believer in FOS and open discussions.
I found one of the rear suspension brace threads in the Library.

It used to have maybe 200 plus posts..now it has *THREE* and is locked. Things got somewhat contentious in the thread recently...but many, many posts prior to that point were also deleted.

Were other threads affected?

I'm sure that those running Elisetalk gave this some thought. Maybe there are some things we don't know about. Perhaps there will be some commentary about the matter.

I'll PM about this and ask that this library-archived thread be completely deleted. It's not what it was anyway. I don't want to be a part of a thread like that. The status appears to have changed too...at first that thread had many posts I was PMed by a moderator indicating this a few days ago. Just checked..my PMs are still there, LOL. I better download them in case they evaporate!

As far as I know...first some recent Ronin posts vanished from that thread. Then the thread was locked with a last post note by Mattg. Then it was moved to the library in ~the same condition. Then all but 3 (reply)posts were kept. Last post date: May 2005. Stan,

I have only been looking at performance and suspension issues because those were my primary concerns. I did not care about pretty girls leaning on Elise nor did I care about the color of my center console. My concern was performance and handling. Those were the reasons I purchased my Elise in the first place.

And even if discussions were somewhat heated there is no reason for them to have been deleted since the only ones offended by any comments of the other party were able to debate them with merit. I beleive something is being hidden because there is no good reason for this topic to have been deleted and therefore I have a strong suspicion that there is a serious issue with the rear suspension chassis brace. After all it is included as a rather expensive option on the new 2006 Elise and Extige. P.S. Stan,

Maybe you should put this rear chassis brace on your Xmas wish list!!

Big Guy I beleive something is being hidden because there is no good reason for this topic to have been deleted and therefore I have a strong suspicion that there is a serious issue with the rear suspension chassis brace. After all it is included as a rather expensive option on the new 2006 Elise and Extige.
Who knows? I'd imagine we'll hear more. I have written correspondence stating why what was done was done (earlier) and some other stuff via PM. But from what was written, there was simply no need to do these latest few things. We'll see. Watch to see if the shadow of the 200 + post thread in the library vanishes or not. I've asked that the whole thing be removed, the OP and 3 replies. ...Apparently Lotus controls this site not Elise owners. I thought this was a public and open forum, that meaning you have the ability to discuss and debate different points of view....
This is not a public forum. Many people join Internet forums under the misconception that they are public forums. This is a website, and it's owned and operated by a private individual like any other website. That person (Randy) has the ultimate say in what goes on around here. You may not agree with it, but that's the way it goes. I also think that the thread in question contained valuable content and would have been beneficial if it had not been deleted, but that content was owned by someone who decided to remove it, for whatever reason. Not much you can do about it, unfortunately. If you see a thread that you may want to refer to in the future, save it to your hard drive. I've done that with several threads. You never know when this whole place will go *poof* and disappear. AndyKeck,

After reading your post can you tell me which came first, the chicken or the egg because failure of the threaded joint according to past posts I've reviewed of Stan's would cause your car to lose control in the manner you originally described.

Chicken or the egg, think about it.
I can say with 99%+ confidence that my toe link failed as a result of the severe impact with the curb. I had put fewer than 30 miles on the car in between picking it up from an alignment and 7500mi service. I also had personally inspected the link only days earlier as part of bleeding the brakes.

The link failed in such a was that the brace would have done no good anyway. The threaded rod failed during the impact, not the end joint and its mounting (the part shored up by the brace).

I believe it is simply fantasy to believe that there is some sort of dangerous weakness and resulting coverup. There has been presented no credible evidence that this joint fails during normal street or light track use. None in the several years that this layout has been used. None here or on SELOC. None.

If posts have been deleted here, it is only because some posters have a difficult time disagreeing without resorting to distasteful tactics. You have an issue with the deletions, talk to Randy and leave it out of this thread. I can say with 99%+ confidence that my toe link failed as a result of the severe impact with the curb. I had put fewer than 30 miles on the car in between picking it up from an alignment and 7500mi service. I also had personally inspected the link only days earlier as part of bleeding the brakes.

The link failed in such a was that the brace would have done no good anyway. The threaded rod failed during the impact, not the end joint and its mounting (the part shored up by the brace).

I believe it is simply fantasy to believe that there is some sort of dangerous weakness and resulting coverup. There has been presented no credible evidence that this joint fails during normal street or light track use. None in the several years that this layout has been used. None here or on SELOC. None.

If posts have been deleted here, it is only because some posters have a difficult time disagreeing without resulting to distasteful tactics. You have an issue with the deletions, talk to Randy and leave it out of this thread. Your accident may have been due to driver error which you orginally stated was not the fault and if that is the case commenting in past posts about other's driving should be reconsidered. If you like I can copy the part's list in detail describing the upgraded parts that make up the rear chassis support brace ,#1 being a much stronger spherical joint, toe-link inboard #A120D0036F. That seems to have been an upgraded joint or that appears to be a stronger link than what is on your car right now. This is a post about possible suspension problems, reading comprehension once again is not your strong suit - that not being meant as a personal attack but a matter of fact.

After looking at detailed photos taken by you about the part in question and also commented by Patricko of the part in question, why do you think the chassis brace was developed? Not to strengthen the chassis but I beleive to strengthen the toe link to chassis connection - the weakest link being the threaded portion of the tie rod end.

Look under the heading of library quote by Stan 4/18/05 for detailed diagram. P.S. Why delete a topic that falls under the heading of possible suspension problem, not just a poster but the entire thread? If posts have been deleted here, it is only because some posters have a difficult time disagreeing without resulting to distasteful tactics. You have an issue with the deletions, talk to Randy and leave it out of this thread.
1) It would have been nice to be able to examine / photograph the broken joint. Then a very clear view of what occurred would be more possible. It wouldn't have to be as murky to some.

2) Andy, tons of posts having nothing at all to do with Ronin were later deleted in a second pass. That is a fact and I've been written to that this occurred and can see it for myself. Several iterations of change took place, this is not an error or oversight. Winding up with material basically from the service manuals. That's up to who runs the stuff here. This conflicts with the stated Ronin issues. I find that aggravating and asked that the remainder of the thread be closed out, the actual thread is gone. I made the original post and 2 of the 3 remaining replies. I have not seen the remainder of the thread deleted but I am yanking my pics for the thread which are not on this site. Your accident may have been due to driver error which you orginally stated was not the fault
I have said from the beginning that my accident was purely my fault.

reading comprehension once again is not your strong suit - that not being meant as a personal attack but a matter of fact.

I am done replying to you on any subject. Welcome to my ignore list. Just in case anyone was wondering, the Elise does not handle better when the rear wheels are allowed to independently steer themselves. I guess holding rear toe constant is a good idea after all... After a personal e-mail with Frank aka Ronin as a quote from a letter to Ronin from Randy... "I have received a number of complaints from people asking me to do something about your posts and no not from the people involved, just other people."

Ronin would like to know what happned to the people in the traffic accident on 10/06/05. You know how to contact him. Thank you. Again, there is no suspension problem.

The brace replaces one style of ball joint (tie-rod end) with a double shear heim joint. It is stronger, but as has been pointed out, it is not really suitable for street usage - it is not as resistant to dirt, etc.

As pointed out, this is not a public forum. It's Randy's forum, and he does a great job of letting it be free. But some of that discussion tended to be very personal. Additionally, the strong statements that "Lotus has a serious safety problem" where in fact they do not, could be considered libel. That could possibly hold Randy legally responsible (it's happened before on other web sites). I have no idea if this is the case at all, but it's a possibility.

Also consider that Randy is not controlled by Lotus - but he does have a useful relationship with Lotus (as do several other's on this list). Lots of information is passed along through unofficial channels, and it would be a shame to close those channels up because of one person making unfounded claims and taking down the forum. Again, I have no idea if this is the case at all, but it's a possibility.

Continuing to blame Lotus for not caring about "safety issues" that do not exist is not helping anything.

As Andy has stated, his wreck was not caused by the link, his car slid out of control into a curb. If that link had been stronger, something else would have failed - probably something much more expensive to repair. Additionally, note that the ball joint did not fail (which is the part strengthened by the brace), the threaded link broke where it screws into the rod - most likely it would have still failed at this location with the brace installed.

Now stop speaking up and acting like Ronin (if in fact you are not Ronin). It isn't helping anything, and you see to be a minority of one in your opinions. As Andy has stated, his wreck was not caused by the link, his car slid out of control into a curb. If that link had been stronger, something else would have failed - probably something much more expensive to repair. Additionally, note that the ball joint did not fail (which is the part strengthened by the brace), the threaded link broke where it screws into the rod - most likely it would have still failed at this location with the brace installed.

Tim, thanks for phrasing that more succinctly than I was able to myself. Again, there is no suspension problem.

The brace replaces one style of ball joint (tie-rod end) with a double shear heim joint. It is stronger, but as has been pointed out, it is not really suitable for street usage - it is not as resistant to dirt, etc.

As pointed out, this is not a public forum. It's Randy's forum, and he does a great job of letting it be free. But some of that discussion tended to be very personal. Additionally, the strong statements that "Lotus has a serious safety problem" where in fact they do not, could be considered libel. That could possibly hold Randy legally responsible (it's happened before on other web sites). I have no idea if this is the case at all, but it's a possibility.

Also consider that Randy is not controlled by Lotus - but he does have a useful relationship with Lotus (as do several other's on this list). Lots of information is passed along through unofficial channels, and it would be a shame to close those channels up because of one person making unfounded claims and taking down the forum. Again, I have no idea if this is the case at all, but it's a possibility.

Continuing to blame Lotus for not caring about "safety issues" that do not exist is not helping anything.

As Andy has stated, his wreck was not caused by the link, his car slid out of control into a curb. If that link had been stronger, something else would have failed - probably something much more expensive to repair. Additionally, note that the ball joint did not fail (which is the part strengthened by the brace), the threaded link broke where it screws into the rod - most likely it would have still failed at this location with the brace installed.

Now stop speaking up and acting like Ronin (if in fact you are not Ronin). It isn't helping anything, and you see to be a minority of one in your opinions. I have received a personal e-mail from Ronin and he quotes - If you would like to talk to me...svronin@aol.com.

Whoever Big Guy is, it's not me--- My only concern was for the safety of all Elise owenrs. If you did not agree with Stan in April '05 I would never have known of a rear support brace...

I respected the input I read on your threads and also Stan's. Whatt I don't get is why you can't stand by the original posts made by yourself and Stan.

I am an enthusiast also... I've been so for the last 37 years from my first $300 MGA to F40's - GT40's...and so on...safety first. Would you want to second guess your Lotus every time you drove a country road? How about your friends and loved ones? Would you want to take them for a drive and God forbid soemthing happened?

How would you feel if you were right the first time and did not act on your original post with regard to it being a safety issue? I have nothing to gain but a small piece of mind - knowing I have this rear support brace installed thanks to you and Stan.

Please if you're going to quote me state the date and time of the original post if you can find them and if you're going to discuss the parts in question make sure you hold them in your hand and compare the two. As to Andy I'm sorry that he had an accident but once again he doesn't know if it was the threaded portion of the tie rod end failing before losing control or hitting the curb and he's lucky there was a curb to stop him and not the edge of a mountain road.

Frank...aka Ronin (not Big Guy) How would you feel if you were right the first time and did not act on your original post with regard to it being a safety issue?
Okay, one more time Ronin/Big Guy.

The only comment that I made about it being a "safety issue" (and I believe that any comment Stan made was along the same line), was concerning allowing the brace to be fitted to cars competing in SCCA stock classes. The classes where you can mount what are essentially slicks and use the car under competitive conditions; the conditions that the brace was intended.

SCCA rules do not allow modifications that will enhance the performance of the car. The suggestion was that it should be allowed to be added as a "safety issue"; a preventative measure for car used in competition - it will do absolutely nothing at all to improve the handling, but it may be beneficial to prevent tie-rod joint failures under racing conditions.

Any safety issues had absolutely nothing to do with street usage.

Comments were made as to the fact that it would be nice to add this to the car - it's one of those things along the lines of installing lighter wheels, or better mirrors. The price took it out of consideration, along with the added information that it is an unprotected heim joint that is not suitable for street usage.

I do not now, and never have considered that there was any problem with the tie-link joint, or any other part of the suspension of the Elise.

Now can we please be done with your one (or two) person campaign? It is helping absolutely nothing. You have made your claims. They have been repeatedly refuted. Stop. Apparently Lotus controls this site not Elise owners. I thought this was a public and open forum, that meaning you have the ability to discuss and debate different points of view.
1. Healthy debate is always welcome
2. AFAIK, we have absolutely no affiliation or connection with Lotus, its parent company, or any of its subsidiaries
3. Even freedom of speech, in the purest form as allowed by the constitution, has limits. Public messages boards will not work without moderation.

I would like Elise Talk to repost the thread under the heading Possible Suspension Problems or would that hurt Lotus Cars North America?
Whether it would hurt Lotus Cars NA, Lotus Cars, UK, Proton, etc doesn't matter to us - we own Elises too, remember. The question is whether that thread would degenerate into a mess.

It's funny how they can delete people like Ronin for no reason other than his bringing to the forefront the problem that is known to exist with your help Stan.
Ronin has not been deleted. Has has been suspended; he was not suspended for having an opinion. The most extreme measure taken to any user is banning.
If posts have been deleted here, it is only because some posters have a difficult time disagreeing without resulting to distasteful tactics. You have an issue with the deletions, talk to Randy and leave it out of this thread.
Ding! I will address some other issues, but my personal business is drawing away my time right now. There is so much that is rediculous being posted.

And that crash thread that was deleted? This one?