http://grs-motorsports.com/noticias/...nas/3nov/1.wmv
About time a video of that car appeared! :)
totally badass and pretty stable.
nice.
awsome run
sweet

A friend of mine recently bought a 1994 R2 with a single turbo (CBB Turbonetics 60-1) and all the supprting mods plus a G-Force ECU. Also it has a PMS piggyback for fuel adjustments. I was wondering what the reccommended A/F for a rotary is under boost. I have recently been told that as high as 13:1 and I am a little weary. I have a wide band o2 for tuning just curious about what the safest A/F to run is. A little less power is OK for more reiability.
Thanks
Adam
11.5:1 seems to be a popular target. 13:1 is too lean as your intuition suggested.
Keep in mind how the PFS box works -- it clamps the boost signal to the ECU to ~11 psi or so, leading the stock ECU to give the same injector pulse width for any boost level above that. Then the PFS box applies its enrichment to that signal. So, you will be rich right at that point, but the car will get lean as the boost rises. Thus, you need one level of enrichment for 11 psi, a higher level of enrichment for 13 psi, and an even higher level of enrichment for 15 psi.
-Max
Originally posted by Batty200
. I have recently been told that as high as 13:1 and I am a little weary. I have a wide band o2 for tuning just curious about what the safest A/F to run is. A little less power is OK for more reiability.
Thanks
Adam Whoever told you 13:1 has no clue about tuning and will blow their rotary very quick. Your best bet is to tune for 11:5:1 on the dyno. On the road the car will be under "load", you will lean out to around 12:1 which is almost perfect.
Thank you all for your inputs! I have a PMS on my DSM also and I was going to call EFI Systems, the maker of the PMS and see if I could use a 3Bar GM MAP like my DSM does and use that for the boost calibrations. Like I said I appreciate all the help. I will post some dyno number when all done.
Later
Hey max
Im the owner of the 94 R2 my buddy Batty200 was talking about.
Anywho how would i get around goin lean about 11 psi ?
I can just give it more fuel right?
I want to run about 15 psi on street and 20 psi on track.
thanks
Hai
You won't be lean at 11 psi, you will be rich at that point if your maximum boost is higher.
The PMS has a fuel cut defencer in it that clamps the boost signal to the stock ECU to keep from hitting fuel cut. Let's call that point C (= 11 or 12 psi). That means the ECU injector signal won't increase at boost levels that are high than C, since the ECU still thinks you are running at boost = C. But, you do need more fuel as the boost goes up, so the remedy is to increase the fuel enrichment in the PMS. However, that will cause you to run rich around point C, since the same injector signal will be delivered at that boost, and the PMS will apply a significant portion of the enrichment adjustment at that level.
Here's an "executive summary" of the situation:
- tune the fuel enrichment map for the maximum boost you plan to run with the map
- you need different maps for different maximum boost levels, since you need more enrichment at higher boost levels (use the Lo-Med-Hi 3-way switch to change maps when you want to run different boost pressures)
- you will run rich around point C when the mixture is right at the maximum boost level
In contrast, systems like the PowerFC, Haltech, etc. allow you to create one fuel map that will work for all boost levels, since there is no clamp on the boost signal to screw things up. They also don't have the issue of running rich just below maximum boost. The PMC works fine for basic programming and people have put down some reasonably decent dyno numbers with it, but you must understand its design to use it effectively.
I attached a spreadsheet that illustrates the issue. Study it to understand what is going on. Play with it to see what happens when you change the numbers.
Be very careful if you want to run a lot of boost. I would be uncomfortable running more than 15 psi with it.
-Max
Also, I want to make it clear that the numbers in the spreadsheet are just for illustration of the issue and SHOULD NOT BE USED to directly program your ECU. I had to use some numbers to show what happens, but those numbers don't necessarily correspond to real values that you will use to program the ECU. Seek to understand what is going on generally, and then keep it in mind as you program the ECU.
The basic rule of thumb to keep in mind with the PMS is that if you want to run a different boost level, you also need to change the fuel enrichment map. If you don't care to learn the details, keeping this rule in mind will still allow you to program the unit successfully.
A lot of us PMS owners in the past started to wonder why we needed different fuel maps for different boost levels. It's the same engine, right? It seems like one map should work. But we discovered that this boost signal clamping behavior results in the requirement that a different enrichment value needs to be used to run a different boost level. The more boost you want to run, the more fuel you need to add to the injector signal from the stock ECU to get the right mixture at maximum boost. We also learned about the rich hump that this situation creates at boost levels just below the max target.
-Max
Have any of you guys used the PMS in its standalone mode via the InteraQ software? With this software you can totally eliminate the ecu as far as I know. Also since the PMS is running on top of a G-Force do you know of a way to disable the Fuel cut defencer built in to it since the Gforce most likely eliminates it also. I will be calling EFI Systems to ask them the same questions.
Thanks.
Adam
yeah we tune my car 11.3 - 11.5 on the dyno
if we are street tuning we try to range 11.7 - 12
Wade Lanham did some work with the standalone stuff. I am not sure if he ever got it to work well or not.
You could probably do a little mod to the wiring harness to defeat the fuel cut defenser behavior. Send the MAP sensor signal to both the PMS and the stock ECU, and leave the PMS output that normally goes to the ECU MAP input unconnected, or perhaps grounded through a (100Kohm?) resistor.
-Max
Max,
Thanks for the help
Greatly appreciated!!
Hai
Well with water injection I run mine at 13.7:1 or there abouts @ 20psi boost and 472rwhp on pump fuel.
No Water Injection and you will need to fuel "dump" to keep things from melting, breaking, springs loosing tension etc etc.
Cars that run just fuel I set to about 10.5:1 to keep them reliable and tolerate bad fuels and hot days !
Originally posted by RICE RACING
Well with water injection I run mine at 13.7:1 or there abouts @ 20psi boost and 472rwhp on pump fuel.
No Water Injection and you will need to fuel "dump" to keep things from melting, breaking, springs loosing tension etc etc.
Cars that run just fuel I set to about 10.5:1 to keep them reliable and tolerate bad fuels and hot days ! Great info.
What do you do to the timing with water on compared to water off?
Ken
For those that tune for road racing (DE events, etc), do you tune for 10.5 - 11.0 on the dyno? How much cushion is required to compensate for high ambient air and intake temperatures during 20-30 minute lapping sessions?
Ramon
Originally posted by RICE RACING
Well with water injection I run mine at 13.7:1 or there abouts @ 20psi boost and 472rwhp on pump fuel.
No Water Injection and you will need to fuel "dump" to keep things from melting, breaking, springs loosing tension etc etc.
Cars that run just fuel I set to about 10.5:1 to keep them reliable and tolerate bad fuels and hot days !
how much water are you dumping in at 20psi? Im dieing to get my water injections hooked up
You can run as high as 14:1 when you're cruising (in vacuum range). To run anything over 12:1 range during low boost is too lean. For boost above 5psi and below 10psi, it's a good idea to start tuning for 11.5 or 11.2.
For anything above, try to tune for 10.5.
When you tune for 10.5 on higher boost, it provides some margin for gas irregularities and temperature differences. You should probably be alright on the track.
If you plan to run 20psi or so, you'll need to upgrade your pressure sensor to a 3bar or more sensor.
J
Originally posted by 87GTR
how much water are you dumping in at 20psi? Im dieing to get my water injections hooked up I ran about 550cc to 600cc per minute from memory. This is the bare minimum I needed to support my 560odd BHP and at that a/f ratio.
My next application is just going to rely on water alone, no IC at all :) and ratios of up to 50% of the fuel flow. Basically same as some aviation piston engines.
If you run an IC I found that a flow rate of 12% is the bare minimum to get adequate performance/protection, you can run up to 15% or more. And if you use other "methods" you can inject up to 50% water to fuel ratio. This is extreme but can be and has been done by lots of people. As an example at 50% water to fuel ratio you are only eliminating around 6% volume of air which is not much, especially when you see how far the charge temp goes down !
One example is 30deg C day
50psi boost !
Charge temp 46deg C with a 50% water ratio, all for displacing 6% volume of air with vapourised water. For extreme applications like this Intercoolers (air to air) are a hinderance as they will heat the charge back up to over ambinet temperatures LOL.
If you are using normal set ups MAJORITY OF YOU GUYS I have always stuck to around 10.5:1 especially when being on a dyno as the things tend to run leaner once you get it out onto the track or the road for obvious reasons. I know its maybe not optimal for power, but saftey is the key thing for a majority of users and as such I think its a good ratio to aim for if your running fuel only in you rotary.
For you water injection men you realy need to know your actual fuel use or flow at max power then size/tune your system to deliver the right ratio of water, again 12% to 15% worked well for me even @ 13.7:1 ;)
Be warned you need a good spark :D
Originally posted by LUV94RX7
Great info.
What do you do to the timing with water on compared to water off?
Ken I leave timing alone, just trim a/f to suit water injection, depends on engine I guess, but mine has a narrow timing "window" in which it seems to operate the best.
In general I would say just adjust your fuel map to get maximum benifit or just leave it and turn the boost of the clock ! You will have lots of options.

So Kumho will be releasing an Azenis RT fighter called the XS.
They'll also have an R-compound wet tire to go against the Hoosier wets.
Sweet! I've been a big fan of Kumho so its nice to see some new products from them. Hopefully some of those will be offered in sizes I can use! ;)
when ? are they coming out with new size anytime soon ?
stolen from the scca forums
" I spoke to a chief engineer and he tells me that the Falken RT-615 was the benchmark and that their test driver is consistently faster on the Kumho. Internally the tire has been known as the FK (Falken Killer). The test driver has also been faster on the new Kumho over the Bridgestone RE-01R.
If you're wondering why the one of the circumferential grooves is closer to the outside, it is for better rain performance without sacrificing dry grip.
Construction and design is finalized. Compound has yet to be finalized should be in orderly fashion to meet the April deadline. Cannot say whether all the sizes will be immediately available but time will tell.
Prices should be similar to Falken RT-615 prices which will represent a good deal for such a fast tire."
Compound has yet to be finalized???
How can they say its faster than anything if they have not decided on the compound for production? they are putting the tire up against production versions of others...:confused:
Sounds promising.
:-) neil

2 Attachment(s) so here is what ive done:
pulled the CAS and spun it to verify spark. i know there is fuel because it floods and i have to unflood it every time i try and start it.
i have new fersh plugs in
i squirted a little 2 stroke oil in the housings to help build compression
it wont even try and fire.
my setup:
850 P
1680 S
stock coils
rebuilt and ported S4 TII
turbonetics 62-1 with .96
after market FPR set at 30 PSI.
walboro in tank fuel pump.
FMIC
i have the MAP but i cant load it on here. i can email it.
i really cant push start it since its not really road worthy yet. im waiting on a flange for the wastegate and im just running the DP.
tommorow or the following nite i will wld up the exhaust.
i loaded 2 PDF's to show how i wired the haltech E6k
i have no trouble going online or anything like that. i just cant get it to fire.
but it shouldnt keep it form starting.
I absolutely HATE doing this.
Unless the (fuel) maps are dialed in pretty good, if you flood the motor just once, it's a royal PITA to get it fired.
It's even harder to do if you're new to this sorta thing.
Flooding the engine washes all the assembly lube / oil that you used to coat everything on assembly.
Once all of that gets washed away from too much fuel, compression takes a dump.
So basically you're trying to start a low compression engine... :(
Have a battery charger handy...
Be patient...
Start lean and then enrich just to get the engine started and idling.
That's about the only advice I can give you...
Good luck!
-Ted
oh its flooded allright. it looked like i was in a car wash under my hood when i pulled the plugs and de-flooded it. should i maybe put some 2 stroke oil in there prior to start up to build compression?
now removing fuel, do i remove in the 0 RPM range and 500??
i have the MAP setup for 800 P and im running 850's.
so i have no idea how much i should remove??
should i take it down 2 or 3 notches then try it or more??
god i hate not knowing what to do!!!
glad you guys are here to help!!;)
so after searching im finding out i shouldnt even be removing fuel from the fuel map yet.....SHEEESHHH....LOL
so which one do i remove fuel from??
the post start MAP?
zero throttle MAP?
are these questions that dumb to be answered???
:/
Disconnect the CAS. Pull the plugs. Crank the engine to clear the flood. Make sure you do not have an open flame source around when you crank the engine without the plugs installed! Install NEW plugs. Reconnect the CAS. Start the engine.
yeah, i been doing this. i had a couple pair of plugs and its just not starting.
ok i found out my timing was 6 degress retarded. got the timing dead nutz @ the yellow marker. checked the T1 and its right on the red marker. i tried starting it again with flooding again. i have the injectors all the way down to 2.464 right on 0 on the zero RPM range. i have both coresponding bars next to it down that far to with still flooding. is that close to where i need it for 850 primaries?
and for some reason im getting vaccum readings from the MAP sensor when im NOT cranking? its reading 2.2inHG without cranking??? could it be that my MAP sensor is shot?? its a 3 bar MAP sensor. if i unplug the sensor it sky rockets to 27inHG
also it doesnt help when its 40 degrees here:/
I would pull all 4 plugs and set them on a good ground, crank it and verify that indeed - all four plugs are firing good and healthy.
If your timing is close, you have fuel, and your sparkplugs are sparkin' - tow the bad boy down the road and get it going. Make sure to have your timing light, a decent amount of fuel, and a helper ready for when it fires up and you get back to the garage/work area.
If (lets say when :) ) it does start keep it running for as long as possible (watch temps etc.) since the objective will be to provide some break-in for the seals. What I've done in the past (on pre-mix motors with used housings) is to actually do the first start up on straight gas and let it run and idle away for a decent time (15 minutes or so) to help the seals seat initially.
From the sounds of it you're battling low compression - but you can verify that before trying anything drastic like bump starting by just takign a compression test. Keep in mind the numbers will be fundamentally flawed though since the engine isn't at running temp, so instead of low numbers - expect really low ones.
i think i suck at timing. i started the base @ 65...cheked it with timing lock ON. i then moved the trugger anlge to about 71 to get it aligned with the pointer. i forgot to turn back OFF the lock timing......so today i had a buddy help with this. after seeing the timing was off after turning the lock OFF we adjusted the trigger angle untill it was set with the pointer (leading 1)...i turned it to like 92...... is that to far? should i have adjusted the CAS to get it closr first?
i then checked the trailing 1 and it wasnt exactly NEAR the pointer. trail 2 was in the same spot??
im asumming THIS is my problem...timing is EFFED up?
thanks for the info classic. i greatley app. it!
You're not doing it correctly.
Once you get it dialed in with LOCK ON, you're not supposed to adjust it.
The Haltech is changing ignition timing via base ignition map and any other ignition timing correction maps that has been programmed.
Unless all of these ignition timing maps are zero'd out (actually set to -5), it's not going to match...
We can't verify the ignition lock is correct, cause your motor can't run yet so don't worry about it moving around until you get the motor started.
Although it's harder to crank and start the motor with ignition timing lock ON, it should start once the maps are dialed in better.
Helpful hint, engines tend to crank and start and idle better with a little more ignition advance...
Sorry I haven't responded to your PM, but I really can't help you with emailing maps back and forth.
I haven't touched an E6K in years, so I've totally forgotten what should be set and how much fuel you should be running... :(
I've been wanting to post a more detailed reply, but things are super busy right now!
-Ted
FWIW in the setups i've worked with, your 65-71 trigger angle settings are closer to the norm for zero'd timing then the 90 something you mention.
Ted is entirely correct on the zero'ing method - but you need to do that with the engine running so let's get there first :)
thanks for the reply's. yesterday (before i changed the trigger angle to 90) i managed to get a nice back fire....
Although it's harder to crank and start the motor with ignition timing lock ON, it should start once the maps are dialed in better. hmmmmmm, i think i had it off when i was cranking the motor before.....
all i need to do left to make it "road worthy" is get my shifter back on and replace the slave cylinder (leaking) so ill do this ASAP and see if i can pop start this car.....
again, thanks for the help....at first i thought i was on my own on this one....;)
ok....so i got my shifter installed....exhaust is all on....
but first im gonna crank on it again......
im assuming from searching i need to adjust the primer MAP since its flooding on cranking right??? well....thats what im going to do....
i remember asking this somewhere and got no answer....
cause i really am not sure which map i need to adjust for cranking....
or is it the post start....
i just need to know which map im adjusting upon cranking~?
Yes, adjusting the PRIMER map will change fuel delivery only on cranking.
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
-Ted
(Godfunit missed the edit window.)
Yes, adjusting the PRIMER map will change fuel delivery only on cranking.
BTW, your cranking RPM's are dictated on how you set it up on the MAIN(?) settings page - it should show as cranking under XXX RPM.
Concentrate on getting the engine to crank over and fire...
Once you can get the engine to do this like stock (fire on the 3rd rotation), then concentrate on the FUEL map to get the car to idle.
If the engine cranks over, fires and then floods, your FUEL map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and floods, then your PRIMER map is set too rich.
If the engine cranks over and the sound doesn't change, then your PRIMER map is too lean.
How can you tell the difference between too much or too little fuel on cranking?
If it floods, the engine will sometimes want to fire and then start to crank over a little faster.
If the engine cranks over with very little change in speed, it doesn't have enough gas.
Also, you can check your spark plugs - it'll be obvious if it floods.
-Ted
1 Attachment(s) thanks ted...
im guessing by your descriptions that im not getting enough fuel then because all it does is crank with any change in tone or speeding up from slight firing....
ill add MORE fuel to the PRIMER map since its just a steady crank with no change...
but the strange thing is the plugs get saturated but they arent SOAKED in fuel.
BTW: i figured out how to load the map in here......
but the strange thing is the plugs get saturated but they arent SOAKED in fuel. Hmmm...I dunno what you're trying to say?
Periodically, check to make sure the spark plugs are firing consistently.
1) Disable fuel (unless you like seeing mists of fuel shoot out of your spark plug holes!)
2) Pull spark plugs but keep spark plug wires on them
3) Ground threads of spark plugs on known good ground - I use the strut tower studs as a convenient place
4) Have friend crank the motor
Watch to see you have a good, strong spark.
If spark is weak or inconsistent, replace them or burn the tips with a propane torch.
-Ted
Hmmm...I dunno what you're trying to say?
-Ted
LOL, I really dont know what i was trying to say either....:wallbash: :rlaugh: i guess obviously the plugs are getting saturated since they arent firing. they really arent even turning black...the leadings arent...the trailings are showing signs of being fired though....a little black carbon on them.
im gonna give it a try again today when i get home form work (add MORE fuel)
again thanks for the assistance!
*edit*
spark seems good and strong.
Have you verified timing?
actually a few times. i re-stabbed the CAS and had the leading (L1) dead nuts with the timing lock ON and set to -5. it's dead nutz now but i checked it last nite (forgot to mentioin this! UGH!) and the trailing both had the yellow (leading) markerd ligned up to the pointer...BOTH T1 AND T2 were lined up the the leading marker on the pulley...i printed the coil install sheet posted in my first post and triple checked the wiring...i dont know how i got it so wacked out??
1 Attachment(s) WOOOOOTTTT!!
it runs!!
turns out the primer MAP was off. i added and added fuel and it started....
first it would stumble and would rotate faster.....i kept adding and it fired....
i attached the map i got it to run with....if you look youll see it has a ways to go.....
also, i re-stabbed the CAS and got it right this time....trailings are fine. T1 lines right up with the marker...T2 is 180 of T1.
L1 is lined right up....
thanks to everyone for the help and support...wouldnt of happen without the here and the rotor heads on it!!
Good news!

Am glad you got your car fired up,
I been following this thread and believe it or not it helps other learn from someone else mistakes.
Am planning on getting a Haltech for my project car, am doing alots of reading and hopefully everything goes smooth.
Andres
cool!
thanks man....if you get time check out the difference in the PRIMER maps between the 2 i posted. i thought i was flooding it from to much fuel, turned out that i didnt have enough and it would just crank (thanks TED!!). by no means is the MAP decent (ill clean it up later on) but it at least got it to fire and idle for at least 20 minutes...

Well today i picked up the 4th and 5th rx7 of mine both 88 both silver and both missing door handles other than that they are in pretty good shape im starting work tommorow but im really glad i got some more fc's
That's cool. I just started driving my 2nd FC last week. What are you planning for mods on the two new cars?
im really not sure just some bolt ons and a port of some king
Do they both run, or did you pick them up as a don't run bargain?
yeah that is how it went down one runs the other has no motor, but the one that runs is just missing some parts and a title so yeah that is the bad part but i just picked up the paper work today so yeah
lucky. if i had the parking space i'd be on my 10th on by now.lol
sweet! I'm looking into getting my second... want to go turbo this time, or have a solid N/A for when I go supercharged.
hell yeah there just projects though for the mean time im not working on them some parts are missing and what not i need battery cables and the wiring diagram to the fuel pump so if yall know anybody that has any battery cables and the wiring diagram to the cable to.
well at least you already have a donor car :)
true but i still need parts is whats sad.
here are some pics
this is the project.
and this is the donor/parts.
Well these are goin to be the last until i get one running properly.
sweet! I'm looking into getting my second... want to go turbo this time, or have a solid N/A for when I go supercharged. Did somebody say... BLOWAA?
Nice work saving the sevens, bro.
they both base models?
damn, put those girls back together...
on a related note ... 1 REPU, 1 SA22, 1 FB, 7 FC in 11 years.
hmm RX vehicles...oil leaking, gas drinking, smelly, expensive habit
yeah yeah and check this out i didnt even know that the one sitting in the drive way is a 2x2 i was totally shocked when i found that out.
that what im thinking, so tell me what kit you got for the 7 i would really like to have a blown fc running around my part of the country
Did somebody say... BLOWAA?
Nice work saving the sevens, bro.
FC are ftmfw
Ah yeah, broken down cars on cinder blocks in the front yard. Classy.
at least it'll look good sitting there
Yeah, to the .002% of the population that gives a shit about RX-7's.
hahaha, i dont know about urs but mine never sat in the yard on cinder blocks, i dailyed mine. of course it was NA............................
No, I've never had a car sitting on cinder blocks in my front yard. I am not white trash or Mexican either, so that might have had something to do with it.
neither am i, but u were the one that brought up that lovely imagery