I am looking at purchasing a new F-650 and considering air brakes on this application. Are there any pro's or con's when plowing with a truck that has air brakes? I have been plowing for over 20 years. Plowed with everything from a Ford Ranger to a Ford F-700. Many different applications. Many jury-rig types also so I have seen the many problems that can occur in the field. I have never plowed with a truck that is equipped with air brakes. I have heavy trucks and have delt with cold weather problems that air brakes can give you but never had a plow rigged up on one. My older F-700's have always had the nasty Lucas-Girling hydraulic set up but they have worked great when plowing. My concirn is that, will air brakes on a plowing truck be more helpful or hurtful? Thanks. Jake.
I've plowed a street route with air brakes, if you're allready familiar with them, they don't cause any problems. The only place they might cause a problem would be a small parking lot where you'd do a lot of braking and run your air down. You wouldn't really want a truck that big in a small lot anyway.
I don't see any reason you can't plow with air brakes. I have also used municipal rigs and drive a big truck for a living.
My question is why woulld you put air brakes on a 650? Wht kind of bed will you be installing? The gross on this truck is 25,900#'s and hydraulic brakes are more than sufficient for stopping power. Also, now you will then need a CDL to operate it. Plus, I think it is an expensive option.
I prefer to plow with hydraulic brakes because you can feel the wheels lock up more than with air brakes. And air brakes tend to lock up easier than hydraulics.
Good luck with your search. When you go pick out your new truck, see if they have an air equipped truck on the lot and take it for a spin.
Plow Meister, Man! You hit the nail on the head! I agree 100%. In the past every truck in the 26,000 - 27,000 GVW range has had juice brakes. I have air on all of my heavy "L" models. 60,000 GVW. I am updating some of my equipement and the "Truck" salesman feels as though I should have air brakes on my new F-650. I decided to drop the GVW rating on this truck because of CDL requirement. Air brakes on a truck like this does nothing but complicate things. Air brakes cost another $2,000.00 plus the complications with possible license endorsements reguardless of GVW plus the possibilities of cold weather complications. Been there, done that. Nothing like the feel of hydraulics when working in snow and ice. (First thing that came to mind when thinking about air brake in the snow). My older, 27,000 GVW trucks have been great over the years with juice brakes, why go air now? That's one of my questions.
Pelican01, You also brought up a good point about air supply. (Not the band) :-). All of my work is parking lots. A lot of tricky truck driving. A lot of brake pedal operation=a lot of air. The compressor will get a workout, let alone any possible extra strain on the engine, etc.
Thanks for the reply's guy's. Jake.
It seems that there are some misconceptions on air brakes and CDL license. Just to clarify some questions on if a CDL is required.
I forgot to attach file.
TurfPlus, Is this actually out of a DMV or DOT book? Everybody that I know who have big trucks or work on big trucks mentioned gray area's of one type or another. There are some people that my mechanic knows, (only a few), who have ran a truck with air brakes under 26,000 but have not had too much a problem because their drivers have a CDL anyway. I like the idea of air brakes but just don't need to deal with any BS on the side of the road at a DOT stop. Even certain DOT officers arn't clear on this subject. Jake.
Jake,
That was a page out of my old CDL study book. I went thru the same problems when I was looking at medium trucks. Air brakes??? Juice brakes??? I agree with you that air brakes are far superior then hydraulic but a truck under 26,000 with hydraulics have more then enough stopping power. After weighting out all my options I settled on an IH 4300 with hydraulic for that fact that everything that was discussed in this thread. I also wanted to avoid any DOT problems down the road since I heard PA is stepping up road inspections. You got a pretty good deal on your F650. What other options did you order? My IH should be here in 4 weeks and then off to the body company. I'll post some pics when I have them. Hope this helps.
John
John, The F-650 that I ordered was pretty basic. I believe that it is an "XL". As for extra's, the salesman that I was dealing with helped me out in some questionable ares. At first I thought that he was trying bump up the cost with BS items. Especially when he originally told me that I needed air brakes and a larger engine at the tune of an additional $4,000.00. Afterwards, when we got the Cat engine and brake question squared away, he pointed out setting the truck up with heavier springs. Front and back. I forget the front rating on this truck but the rear springs are rated at 19,500 lbs. I had many questions about transfer of my equipement, especially the plow. I thought that I would need to do a lot of alterations on the front of the truck and plow harness but we were able to get a truck spec with a stationary grill. No crazy welding or cutting of the trucks grill. This way the hood will tilt over the grill and harness without problem. It was a $100.00 option. A no-brainer. The only other option was the seat back being able to tilt foward instead of it being in a fixed position.
One last thing that I tried to get was Cast-spoke wheels instead of the "Bud" style but evedently Ford is not offering them on the F-650's at this point in time. All of my other trucks have them and I wanted to try and stay uniform with the fleet. Oh well, can't have it all. Besides that, everything else is pretty much basic.
As for brakes, I have had many trucks rated at 27,000 lbs over the years and never had a stopping problem. No reason to re-invent the wheel at this time. Plus the BS problems mentioned in the above threads are not needed at this time.
Funny you mention pictures. I have many people question me about pictures of my trucks. I need to invest into a digetal camera one of these days so i can download and post them. :-).
Catch ya later. Jake.
In Maine, any truck with a GVW over 10,000 must stop at commercial vehicle inspections.
Geoff
Air brakes are the best.but even with air dryers you need to drain tanks every shift in winter mode and when shut down leave tank drain cracked open so heavier sludge can drain out i have a cdl with air and tanker endorcments. when you apply air brakes on truck,loaders or graders you know you have brakes
In Maine, any truck with a GVW over 10,000 must stop at commercial vehicle inspections.
Geoff I believe, although I could be wrong, but believe its a National DOT regulation that the driver of any vehicle over 10,000lbs GVWR but under 26,000lbs GVWR must have a medical examination card, even though a CDL is not required. In Mass, we also need a medical card for getting a hoisting license for loaders and excavators and stuff like that.
I believe, although I could be wrong, but believe its a National DOT regulation that the driver of any vehicle over 10,000lbs GVWR but under 26,000lbs GVWR must have a medical examination card, even though a CDL is not required. In Mass, we also need a medical card for getting a hoisting license for loaders and excavators and stuff like that. i dont have one to drive a 17.5K F-550 or a 26K International
i also heard, and could be wrong...but the F-650 has the option of air to the rear and hydraulic to the front, since it has the hydraulic to the front you dont need an air certification.
i also heard, and could be wrong...but the F-650 has the option of air to the rear and hydraulic to the front, since it has the hydraulic to the front you dont need an air certification.
Im unsure about the medical card if its mass or national, but in mass, if theres any airbrakes at all on the vehicle, you need the air endorsement

Ive got a leak around my rearend cover and was wondering if I could use silicone instead of a gasket. I know a machanic that avoids gaskets when ever possible. He uses 514 locktight gasket maker. Ive alwaysed used it on the bottomends of the sleds i rebuild but will i get a better seal on my rearend?
I would not worry about it to much for a rearend. Why not use the gasket though?
I would tend to stay away from it (unless called for) on anything that is internal in an engine. Also keep in mind that you only need a thin coat. I see many people put way too much on. If it squeezes out on the outside then it is on the inside as well.
They make a product called gasket shellack. use it with your gasket, It goes on like a liquid and does not squeeze out like a like RTV would.
There is also a product called "high tack" that remains pliable when used to seal a gasket into place. It comes in a small can and goes on with an included brush. I've had great luck with this product in any and all applications in the past.
Bruce
Ideally, if there is a gasket used for a particular application I try to put a gasket back in.
In the real world that isn't always practical, and I have had good luck using silicone (also referred to as RTV for Room Temperature Vulcanizing) where necessary. One example is the king pin caps on my K-35 front axle. Make sure the surfaces are clean and free of oil/grease etc.
Keep in mind that RTV was never intended to fill large gaps or make up for poorly fitting parts.
Go ahead,and use silicone,it will work fine,the only thing i do is clean the area several times with parts cleaner,the more grease free you get it,the better the seal.I use Silicone whenever possible too,it is much better than gaskets,when applied correctly it will not leak.You will need a chisel/hammer to pry that diff cover off after you put silicone on it!Thats the biggest drawback to silicone,it bonds like glue when applied to a greae-free surface.
john is right on the money.clean the cover and housing, has to be very,very, clean.it will work fine and won't leak.
I use brake cleaner to clean the surfaces. Have used RTV this way (no gaskets) for years w/out problems. A mechanic who puts rears in large trucks started me doing it. He swears by the stuff. He also uses starting fluid as a cleaner, says it does just as good a job, dries fast and is .88 cents a can.
Just remember that starting fluid is mostly ether and EXTREMELY flammable.
Bruce
Most newer trucks don't have gaskets anymore, they rely solely on silicone. Cleanliness is extremely important, brake cleaner works well, and follow the directions on your sealer. I use Permatex, you squeeze it on, let it tack over and assemble.
Dany,
As has been said before, they don't use gasket's anymore. I pulled my rear cover and installed a Mag-Hytec. The stock one was on with silicone. The Mag-Hytec has an o-ring in the flange so you don't have to use anything with it;)
Greg
If its a Dana you cant even get a gasket. Use blue RTV for the rear, gray for the front.
What is the difference between the blue and gray RTV? What is different from front to rear?
Different temps. It was explained to me that the front needs the higher temp stuff due to engine heat etc. I have used the black RTV for exhaust manifold use on my leaf blower with no problems so far.
If memory serves me, from coolest use to highest temp use its blue, red, gray, black but I could be mistaken...

Can't get my 97 PS to start this morning. Turns over fast enough and on occasion wants to fire up but no go, glow plug timers coming on but still no start? Glow plugs maybe have 15000 miles on them so that shouldn't be the problem. Any other ideas? It's hovering around the plus zero mark temperature wise here today so it's not that cold. I've plugged it in but I'm not sure if these things have a block heater or just battery warmers as I've never had to plug it in before. Also - can you safely ether these things, just in case I can't get it going. Thanks for any help.
Well I got the thing started easily after it being pugged in for only a stort time. So this leads me to believe it's glow plug related. There's not enough miles on the plugs for them not to be working so the problem should be in the timer, relay or other glow plug items. Does anybody know what 's all involved and were the components are? Thanks.
I would stay away from ether! I had no problems ever when I had my '97 plugged in. Usually only when it was forcast below zero. Even in the coldest days when I was traveling and she sat at the airport for a week or so unplugged I would just let the glowplug timer cycle twice (key off/on again) and she would fire right up. Temps down to $%&& freezing over!! Anyway, I think the newer SD's '99 and up? have a "smart" timer that looks at temp, etc and adjusts the cycle time.
I later put in a remote starter. What a sweet piece of gear! I had it set for the "cold mode" where if temps where low and the battery voltage dropped she would fire up and run for 15 min. Piece of mind for those cold night getting off the plane. No dead batteries and I could start it and let it warm up while I put my gear away!!
Good luck and let us know what you find!
Pete
Did you change out the Glow Plug relay at the same time? This may be the culprit. Don't bother with Ford, find a local International dealer to get the relay. Better Price, Chris
I just sort of skimmed the post, didn't read everything. But, I did see ether mentioned. DO NOT USE IT ON THE DIESEL. It is very bad news. I would agree with the last post. Check and just change your GPR(glow plug relay). It is for sure not working right. The GPR's in these trucks have a bad track record. After the GPR change, if there isn't a big improvement in starting in cold weather, then I'd check the glow plugs, and if there are two of more not working up to snuff, then put all new ones in. You can get the glow plugs for your truck at Auto Zone. They are a Motorcraft part, and come in a Motorcraft bag, but for alot less than a ford dealer. Good Luck. for more info, and better, visit= "www.thedieselstop.com" and go to the 94-97 section. good luck, Nick.
make sure the batteries are FULLY charged. That big diesel engine requires a lot of juice to turn the engine over entirely. I've had a situation previously where the diesel engine was cranking nicely, yet would not start. However, after recharging the batteries to 100% the engine turned over and started up like nothing was ever wrong.
To the above posts: what's wrong with ether? is ether different than starting fluid that is labeled as being "safe for diesel and gasoline engines?"
The only reason I mention ether is because that's what I have to use to get the old diesel farm tractor going in the winter. Works everytime. I agree though and it would have been a last resort if the thing didn't start. In any case as I mentioned - plugging it in did start it and doing an elimination check it is the relay. Thanks for all the help.
glow plugs wear out as like spark plugs.i think they recomend changing at 100,000 or when it gets hard starting.they use 2 styles,the quick and the slow,the quick glow are 6v plugs on a 12v system,they tend to go quicker,the 12v slow ones last a long time,but do wear out.
to test the relay,clip a volt meter on one of the plugs,turn the key on and watch the light or meter for voltage.there should be close to battery voltage in there,if no voltage,change the glow plug relay.if there is voltage,chnge all the plugs out.its cheaper and will save battery and starter life.plugging it in will also save wear and tear also.
either in any glow plug relay type vehicle could convert it to being headless.it could blow the heads or intake off the vehicle.use ing either in any vehicle does put too much wear and tear on the pistons had heads also.once you start them on either,you basically have to keep using it.
if you do have to use either in a vehicle with glow plugs,spray it while cranking,never before.while cranking the glow plugs are not on and the chance of blowing up is minimal.ive done it in quite a few glow plug vehicles,gm,ford,ih,dodge,and a few others.
Before spending $50.00 on a new GPR or if Ford doesn't have one in stock, jump the two posts on top of the relay with a jumper cable. Just make sure to use the same color on both ends of the cable. Attach the jumper, wait 15 seconds, then kick it over. Should fire right up.
The Ford Turbo's are a pain in the A$$ when they don't start in the cold, I manage an ambulance service that has about 10 of these and found out the hard way what happens when you use starting fluid in them .... just a short burst caused a fire in the air intake housing and damaged the turbo .... our mechanic got a good laugh :eek:
Originally posted by clueless
to test the relay,clip a volt meter on one of the plugs That would be a lot of trouble just to check the relay since the glow plugs are under the valve covers. It is much easier to check the relay at the relay on top of the engine. clueless, your whole post seems to be information on an old Chevy diesel. The psd's are a newer deal than the old Chevy's. No more quick glow and slow glow.
truszip, Does it smoke when it cranks over but won't start? If so check the relay. It is under the plastic cover on top of the engine. Just take a 1/2" deep socket and remove the three nuts that hold the cover on. The relay will be above the passenger side valve cover. If the relay is bad you can pick up a Napa GPR-109. The posts are reversed on the Napa relay but they are half the price. You might have to extend the wires a little for them to reach the proper post but usually they are long enough.
If you don't get smoke while it is cranking but not starting look at the tach. If the tach is not moving while you are cranking it then it is the CPS(cam position sensor). The tach should be reading several hundred rpm's when you are cranking engine.
Again - thanks for all the help. Changed the relay, starts everytime. Thanks again.
Not to clog the thread up but the reasone ether is no good is because even with a bad glow plug it will still heat up and the ether will make it burn so hot the tip can fall off and be injested by the motor.It happens and if the motor doesnt pass the tip u could have major internal damage.And always get the motocraft glow plugs,autolites and champion ones burn out whey to quik .
Just another example of a FORD needing a minor Adjustment / Part to fix it. PSD rock! My next plow truck will have one!

I am in process of shopping an F-650 Superduty. I am kicking around either the Powerstroke or a Caterpillar diesel engine. Any pro's or con's to either application. The Cat engine seems to be approx $3,500.00 more. Is it worth it? Thanks. Jake.
Talk to GeoffD. He knows the run down on these larger Fords. I think he will tell you the Cat is worth the expense.
I would go with the Cat,more torque,and longevity.Resale will be way higher on the cat if that is an issue.It is also a MD engine,the Navistar is an LD engine in a MD truck.
John you got that right.I would also go with the cat if I had to make the choice,one like john said beter resale value and just a better engine for MD use.
Thanks Guy's for the reply's. I kind of figured the Cat would be the way to go. I do have Cat's in my heavier trucks and wasn't sure weather the Powerstroke would be good in this lighter application. The cost factor was another thing that I was taking into consideration. A couple more thousand for the Cat vs. the Powerstroke. Probably will have to dig deep. Thanks again. Jake.
Part of the formula should be how long are you keeping the truck and how many miles will you put on it in this time? The Powerstroke is basically a throw away motor, but the Cat can be rebuilt, hence the higher price. If you haven't been to Ford-diesel , check them out, there's a section dedicated to 650s and 750s. I've read of guys there with hotshots that have run the powerstroke for 300,000 miles. If you're going to be running at max GVW or more most of the time, the Cat's probably a good idea. If not, the Powerstroke would probably do.
Jake, check out this thread
Jake,and Pelican,from info i see in the TDR,the guys with Dodge's that Hotshot around the country ,in there travels,talk to owners of PSD's that do the same.From what is in the mag,the PSD is usually good for about 425K max when hotshotting.The Cummins in the Dodge is good for 800K-to over 1 million,before they require a rebuild.This is running at 12-25K GCWR every day.All the diesels seem to love to run nonstop,and last much longer on the open road than local driving.Now the Cat is probably going to last at least as long as the 5.9 Cummins,probably longer,since its bigger.Dont forget in an F650,the PSD will not last nearly as long as in a pickup,due to the weight.If you notice you cant get a PSD in the bigger Fords,but the 5.9 Cummins and CAT are in them,that tells you something,the PSD is at its limit in the F650,and while it will work,if you ever want to tow a 10 ton trailer,or sell it,or run loaded every day,your going to regret not buying the CAT.Why put a light duty engine in a medium duty truck.When you look at the unfront price vs power/durability/resale,the Cat makes the most sense for most big trucks.Whichever you choose,you will own a fine truck,and good luck with it.
Hey Guy's, I made the move. Had a lot of bugs and other things to work out but finally made a deal and got an F-650 w/ Cat engine on order. The Cat 3126 wound up only being a $900.00 increase over the Powerstroke. Plus, the new salesman I delt with was able to set me with a FIN, (Fleet Identification Number), which then dropped the price of the truck lower than what the original quote was with the Powerstroke. We were also able to make the truck a 2003 instead of 2002.
I feel much better now. At one point I had visions of not even buying the truck. The truck was an order so I probably will not see it for six weeks. Thanks for all the help. These boards are the best. Jake.
Jake I was just woundering about that fin #.How did he do that can any one be able to get it how much was the truck and how did you equip it.
Cat320,
My salesman first asked for a VIN number for every vehicle and piece of equipement that we have owned, reguardless it being a current vehicle or one that was traded/sold and if it was a business or personal vehicle. Then, after that, they asked for a list of the vehicles that we still currently have on the road. Doesn't matter what manufacturer or type. You must have 15 pieces or more in operation. Once you receive the FIN, you are eligable for certain commercial discounts that are available at the time of delivery. The only problem with using the FIN was that I was not eligible for 0.0 financing. I purchased a standard F-650, 6 speed trans, CAT 3126 engine, and it does have air-conditioning. This is only a chassis cab. I am transferring my flatbed body and Western plow from my old rig to the new chassis.
Cost of Chassis/Cab $34,600 before applicable taxes.
Jakegypsum, just how much is the fleet discount? In '97 when I bought my F-350 the salesman said he was giving me the "Fleet discount" which amounted to $300 on a $26,000 invoice. I don't know how he pulled it off, I don't own anywhere near 15 vehicles, I didn't ask questions. I bought it down in North Carolina because he was $2500 less than local dealers, it was delivered locally. The local dealer asked to see the invoice, raised his eyebrows and shook his head, he wasn't too happy. $2500 is $2500 though!
Pelican01, It all depends on the peticular time that you make the purchase. Different discounts can be available depending on the time of purchase. You need to get a Fleet Identification Number in order to obtain the discounts. It could be anywhere between $300.00 to $4,500.00. At least that's what I have come across.
The only thing is that you do have to give up some other options. That is, for me I am not eligable for the 0.0 finance option because of commercial application. It kind of makes me think that they will get ya one way or another but an incentive is an incentive reguardless of what the option is. You just got to make it work. Jake.
Pelican01, One last thing.
Your Darn right $2,500.00 is $2,500.00. When I purchased a Ford Explorer back in 94' and financed it for three years, I compared the finance charges of Ford to my bank. Ford offered the cheapest rate compared to my bank. When I signed the papers, the Ford Credit rep at the dealership originally wrote me up at a higher rate after being quoted lower. I got upset. The man said, "hey, it's only $25.00 more a month". I said, "Hey, That could be a dinner or anything else that would cost $25.00 a month".
At first he didn't budge. Then, he saw that I was serious and came back to the original quote. Heck, why quote somebody something and then change. I was upset because both myself and my wife really were happy to buy this peticular Explorer but I was ready to let it go and start form scratch. It could have cost me a little mor plus extra aggravation but I am not going to deal with a "J.O." who is going to renig on something already quoted. Jake.
Originally posted by John DiMartino
I would go with the Cat,more torque,and longevity.Resale will be way higher on the cat if that is an issue.It is also a MD engine,the Navistar is an LD engine in a MD truck. I know this thread was started some time ago but I haven't been able to keep up what with work and all.
Actually, the Navistar engine is for MD's. When they are used in MD applications they are reconfigured for more hp and torque. Remember, it is only the short block and a few other misc. components that are built or supplied by Navistar. The rest is entirely supplied by Ford. I believe the Powerstroke offered in the 650 and up has different ratings.
I am not sure but aren't many full size school busses powered by Navistar 7.3L turbo diesels?

ints the stick on the floor, getting difficult to shift back and forth, what maintenance or repairs should i make.....
anyone, i have little experience with 4x4, should i change the gear oil or what.....
From what I understand, the linkage rusts up under the floor of the truck. Get under there and flood it with penetrating oil.
RON
ill give it a try .....